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Post by zanygame on Feb 13, 2024 21:42:08 GMT
You despair of me. Jeez. Ofcourse the heat comes from the sun. But the heat from the sun hitting earth has not increased. So what's causing the heat is the change in the amount leaving the earth after reaching it. That you think its possible that the sun has got hotter or nearer the earth without anyone noticing is staggering in its ignorance. The Milankovitch cycles are very well known and mapped. Please up your game, this is embarrassing. The sunlight arriving at earth has not changed much but is variable within certain parameters. How that sunlight warms the earth and how the earth keeps or emits that heat is of course a very complex series of events with numerous factors affecting it with variable effects as regards the temperature of the world. Blah blah emptiness
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Post by sandypine on Feb 13, 2024 22:04:05 GMT
I did not say 'prove it' I asked for the evidence as regards your clear statement that earth was warming due to CO2 concentrations. There are co-relations of all sorts of things in the atmosphere and effects as regards sunlight, gases, energy, air movement, volcanic activity, cloud cover, heat exchange, ocean currents etc but you are adamant that CO2 is rising and the temperature is rising and the two are directly related in a cause and effect specifically as regards the earth. The things you list have all been looked at. Increased Co2 is the only one capable of delivering the 7,516,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules of energy needed to heat the whole planet 1.5 degrees. Much of the things you list involve Co2 increases Cloud cover, heat exchange are results of warming not causes. Ocean currents can move heat but don't create global increases in temperature. Volcanic activity, not enough. Sunlight the same, in fact slightly less as we are in a solar maunder. You missed alien death rays. Tarmac. Urban sprawl . So the evidence is we do not know what else it could be. Your biggest uncertainty is the Oceans whereby it is not the current temperature that is problematic in measuring it is how to correct the historic record which is rife with bias, human frailty and potential inaccuracies not least in the methods of reading and the thermometers used. Consider taking a reading from a bucket dumped overboard and then hauled in. Say the standard was put the thermometer in the bucket and take the reading after thirty seconds, with evaporative cooling at work all the time a sailor out in the sunshine enjoying the weather 30 seconds becomes a minute and a cooler temperature is read, the type of bucket is frequently unknown whether it is wooden or canvas and later rubber the height of the ships deck makes a difference, wind speed, ships tacking on one compass setting, buckets kept on deck may have a warming or cooling effect, the time of day, cloud cover all affect the historic reading to unknown degrees. After teh 1930s ships intakes had a warming effect on the readings and the speed was also important. Ships Captain's were paid to keep a record and having worked in an environment where temperature readings of numerous processes were supposed to be kept as a QA procedure it is quite often that falsification occurs where thermometers were broken or bucket ropes parted or the Captain could not be bothered and produced a best guess. On such things are we relying. All of these factors have been researched and factors applied to correct the historic Ocean temperatures but they are what they are a best guess and a largely unknown quantity. The US transcribed teh Japanese readings after WW2 and to save space dropped the decimal making the Japanese records 0.35C colder. The logging of all the Ocean temp records is incomplete by some 6 million pages in the UK records alone that have not been digitised. Would you mortgage your house on such records?
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Post by zanygame on Feb 13, 2024 22:34:16 GMT
The things you list have all been looked at. Increased Co2 is the only one capable of delivering the 7,516,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules of energy needed to heat the whole planet 1.5 degrees. Much of the things you list involve Co2 increases Cloud cover, heat exchange are results of warming not causes. Ocean currents can move heat but don't create global increases in temperature. Volcanic activity, not enough. Sunlight the same, in fact slightly less as we are in a solar maunder. You missed alien death rays. Tarmac. Urban sprawl . So the evidence is we do not know what else it could be. Your biggest uncertainty is the Oceans whereby it is not the current temperature that is problematic in measuring it is how to correct the historic record which is rife with bias, human frailty and potential inaccuracies not least in the methods of reading and the thermometers used. Consider taking a reading from a bucket dumped overboard and then hauled in. Say the standard was put the thermometer in the bucket and take the reading after thirty seconds, with evaporative cooling at work all the time a sailor out in the sunshine enjoying the weather 30 seconds becomes a minute and a cooler temperature is read, the type of bucket is frequently unknown whether it is wooden or canvas and later rubber the height of the ships deck makes a difference, wind speed, ships tacking on one compass setting, buckets kept on deck may have a warming or cooling effect, the time of day, cloud cover all affect the historic reading to unknown degrees. After teh 1930s ships intakes had a warming effect on the readings and the speed was also important. Ships Captain's were paid to keep a record and having worked in an environment where temperature readings of numerous processes were supposed to be kept as a QA procedure it is quite often that falsification occurs where thermometers were broken or bucket ropes parted or the Captain could not be bothered and produced a best guess. On such things are we relying. All of these factors have been researched and factors applied to correct the historic Ocean temperatures but they are what they are a best guess and a largely unknown quantity. The US transcribed teh Japanese readings after WW2 and to save space dropped the decimal making the Japanese records 0.35C colder. The logging of all the Ocean temp records is incomplete by some 6 million pages in the UK records alone that have not been digitised. Would you mortgage your house on such records? So now you are suggesting the oceans are suddenly giving up their hidden heats to the atmosphere. Do you know how absurd you sound. Why are the oceans suddenly doing this now.
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 14, 2024 7:44:25 GMT
I did not say 'prove it' I asked for the evidence as regards your clear statement that earth was warming due to CO2 concentrations. There are co-relations of all sorts of things in the atmosphere and effects as regards sunlight, gases, energy, air movement, volcanic activity, cloud cover, heat exchange, ocean currents etc but you are adamant that CO2 is rising and the temperature is rising and the two are directly related in a cause and effect specifically as regards the earth. The things you list have all been looked at. Increased Co2 is the only one capable of delivering the 7,516,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules of energy needed to heat the whole planet 1.5 degrees. Much of the things you list involve Co2 increases Cloud cover, heat exchange are results of warming not causes. Ocean currents can move heat but don't create global increases in temperature. Volcanic activity, not enough. Sunlight the same, in fact slightly less as we are in a solar maunder. You missed alien death rays. Tarmac. Urban sprawl . So how much energy has been delivered by the repurposing of 70% of the Earth's land surface to provide food, houses and infrastructure for humans. We know that virtually all of the changes we've made cause warming. Urban Heat Islands cause very significant warming for example (5C or more). And how much cooling has CO2 caused by photosynthesis and transpiration. And how much warming does water vapour cause - which is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and exists in vastly greater quantities in the atmosphere? You see, zany, none of these have been calculated because it's far too complex. Yet they're all significant factors in global temperature. The only one that's been calculated is the CO2 greenhouse effect because it's the only one we can calculate. But there are a vast number of factors that affect global temperature. In science, zany, what the scientists do when they have a situation like this (with many unknown factors) is attempt to eliminate the unknowns - i.e. create an environment where the only variable that is changing is the one whose effect you need to evaluate. So they have set up experiments (on Earth) where the only factor changing is CO2 concentration and measured the temperature change. And guess what? Changing CO2 concentration has no effect (except in deserts). (And don't ask for links again because I've given you them). And another discouraging bit of evidence for your CO2 theory is that the models that have been built using the hypothesis of CO2 warming have consistently failed to work. They've gradually lowered the coefficient for CO2 but they still don't work. Most would regard the CO2 theory as "wrong" at this point, but for some reason they still carry on claiming CO2 is the cause of warming - and stupid people keep on believing them. It's just proof that if you keep on telling people something many people will believe it, even without evidence. PS. I would never have expected small changes in CO2 to have significant changes in temperature. If the Earth weren't buffered to absorb such small variations then it probably would have burned up or frozen. Remember in the history of the Earth the current levels of CO2 not very high (420ppm) - they have been nearly 10,000 ppm in the past yet the Earth survived. The plants just grew very fast
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Post by zanygame on Feb 14, 2024 8:46:08 GMT
The things you list have all been looked at. Increased Co2 is the only one capable of delivering the 7,516,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules of energy needed to heat the whole planet 1.5 degrees. Much of the things you list involve Co2 increases Cloud cover, heat exchange are results of warming not causes. Ocean currents can move heat but don't create global increases in temperature. Volcanic activity, not enough. Sunlight the same, in fact slightly less as we are in a solar maunder. You missed alien death rays. Tarmac. Urban sprawl . So how much energy has been delivered by the repurposing of 70% of the Earth's land surface to provide food, houses and infrastructure for humans. We know that virtually all of the changes we've made cause warming. Urban Heat Islands cause very significant warming for example (5C or more). And how much cooling has CO2 caused by photosynthesis and transpiration. And how much warming does water vapour cause - which is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and exists in vastly greater quantities in the atmosphere? You see, zany, none of these have been calculated because it's far too complex. Yet they're all significant factors in global temperature. The only one that's been calculated is the CO2 greenhouse effect because it's the only one we can calculate. But there are a vast number of factors that affect global temperature. In science, zany, what the scientists do when they have a situation like this (with many unknown factors) is attempt to eliminate the unknowns - i.e. create an environment where the only variable that is changing is the one whose effect you need to evaluate. So they have set up experiments (on Earth) where the only factor changing is CO2 concentration and measured the temperature change. And guess what? Changing CO2 concentration has no effect (except in deserts). (And don't ask for links again because I've given you them). And another discouraging bit of evidence for your CO2 theory is that the models that have been built using the hypothesis of CO2 warming have consistently failed to work. They've gradually lowered the coefficient for CO2 but they still don't work. Most would regard the CO2 theory as "wrong" at this point, but for some reason they still carry on claiming CO2 is the cause of warming - and stupid people keep on believing them. It's just proof that if you keep on telling people something many people will believe it, even without evidence. PS. I would never have expected small changes in CO2 to have significant changes in temperature. If the Earth weren't buffered to absorb such small variations then it probably would have burned up or frozen. Remember in the history of the Earth the current levels of CO2 not very high (420ppm) - they have been nearly 10,000 ppm in the past yet the Earth survived. The plants just grew very fast So according to you Co2 moderates the Earths temperature but increasing or decreasing it has no effect. Jeez. Measurements of air in ice cores show that for the past 800,000 years up until the 20th century, the atmospheric CO2 concentration stayed within the range 170 to 300 parts per million (ppm) One of the most notable periods of high CO2 concentrations occurred during the Carboniferous Period, which lasted from about 359 to 299 million years ago. During this time, CO2 levels are estimated to have been significantly higher than today, possibly reaching levels of around 1000 to 2000 parts per million (ppm) or even higher. However, reaching 10,000 ppm of CO2 is not well-documented in the geological record. Such high levels would likely be associated with extreme climatic conditions, but there isn't concrete evidence to support CO2 levels at 10,000 ppm in Earth's history.How you know plants grew really quickly I do not know, well I do actually, you made it up like the rest of your science.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 8:57:25 GMT
How you know plants grew really quickly I do not know, well I do actually, you made it up like the rest of your science. The CO2 is held in the soil and increases photosynthesis.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 14, 2024 9:00:54 GMT
How you know plants grew really quickly I do not know, well I do actually, you made it up like the rest of your science. The CO2 is held in the soil and increases photosynthesis.
No it doesn't. CO2 in soil does not contribute to photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis primarily occurs in the chloroplasts of plant cells, where carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is taken up through tiny pores called stomata on the leaves.
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Post by sheepy on Feb 14, 2024 9:25:19 GMT
The CO2 is held in the soil and increases photosynthesis.
No it doesn't. CO2 in soil does not contribute to photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis primarily occurs in the chloroplasts of plant cells, where carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is taken up through tiny pores called stomata on the leaves. With the alleged amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the amount of rain we get, we should be able to grow our own rainforest.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 9:26:15 GMT
The CO2 is held in the soil and increases photosynthesis.
No it doesn't. CO2 in soil does not contribute to photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis primarily occurs in the chloroplasts of plant cells, where carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is taken up through tiny pores called stomata on the leaves. It's why organic matter, like manure or old plant life (fertilizer that is rich in carbon) is used to assist in plant growth, which in turn increases photosynthesis.
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Post by sandypine on Feb 14, 2024 10:00:06 GMT
So the evidence is we do not know what else it could be. Your biggest uncertainty is the Oceans whereby it is not the current temperature that is problematic in measuring it is how to correct the historic record which is rife with bias, human frailty and potential inaccuracies not least in the methods of reading and the thermometers used. Consider taking a reading from a bucket dumped overboard and then hauled in. Say the standard was put the thermometer in the bucket and take the reading after thirty seconds, with evaporative cooling at work all the time a sailor out in the sunshine enjoying the weather 30 seconds becomes a minute and a cooler temperature is read, the type of bucket is frequently unknown whether it is wooden or canvas and later rubber the height of the ships deck makes a difference, wind speed, ships tacking on one compass setting, buckets kept on deck may have a warming or cooling effect, the time of day, cloud cover all affect the historic reading to unknown degrees. After teh 1930s ships intakes had a warming effect on the readings and the speed was also important. Ships Captain's were paid to keep a record and having worked in an environment where temperature readings of numerous processes were supposed to be kept as a QA procedure it is quite often that falsification occurs where thermometers were broken or bucket ropes parted or the Captain could not be bothered and produced a best guess. On such things are we relying. All of these factors have been researched and factors applied to correct the historic Ocean temperatures but they are what they are a best guess and a largely unknown quantity. The US transcribed teh Japanese readings after WW2 and to save space dropped the decimal making the Japanese records 0.35C colder. The logging of all the Ocean temp records is incomplete by some 6 million pages in the UK records alone that have not been digitised. Would you mortgage your house on such records? So now you are suggesting the oceans are suddenly giving up their hidden heats to the atmosphere. Do you know how absurd you sound. Why are the oceans suddenly doing this now. You are not paying attention, realistically we do not know what the temperature of the oceans was before satellite information some 40 years ago. We are comparing the temperature of the ocean now using modern technology with the temperature of the ocean as measured some 100 years and more ago. The methods used then are at best suspect and are not only incomplete but alive with correction factors to allow for biases within the measurements and some measurements dubious at best. Even the scientists going into these measurements in detail disagree with what they arrive at with the oceans contributing to planetary warming giving a range of 1.34 and 1.54 for the planet temperature. This discrepancy is due mainly to all the variables I referred to above. You keep asking about the heat I keep referring to how the heat is subject to many inaccuracies and fiddle factors in its measurement and application and what it all means is subject to interpretation. As with the death valley 1913 record temperature and the disappearance of the medieval warming period in the hockey stick graph the temperatures from which they derive their 'fact' that the planet is warming almost uncontrollably is subject to sudden deletion if they do not fit the narrative and dismissed as a blip. Statistically many's a blip has been ignored and found eventually to be of some significance. As I said would you mortgage your house on sailors taking temperatures with canvas/wooden/rubber buckets 100 years ago as they bounced around on deck getting soaked even in their Drizabones.
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Post by jonksy on Feb 14, 2024 12:50:41 GMT
'The report also suggested that military vehicles could be electric in future, with others running with fuel and parts that have been made from recycled material' - has anyone at the MoD ever thought that the reason why no one wants to join the Armed Forces is because of this BS? Could this climate bullshit sink any lower? Royal Navy is told to 'get a grip' over plans to make all sailors attend compulsory courses on how climate change may impact defence... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13081881/Royal-Navy-make-sailors-attend-compulsory-courses-climate-change.html
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 14, 2024 14:58:32 GMT
Zany, you still haven't understood the idea of a buffer or stabiliser. Jeez. Basically the effects of CO2 are stabilised in the earth's system because the introduction of more CO2 causes plants to grow faster (which is very well documented as I've explained several times before). When plants grow they not only remove CO2 from the air but they also capture the Sun's radiative energy and store it in higher organic compounds (nature's own solar cells). This causes the temperature to go up less than it would have done without the presence of plants. As I said you seem to have a very bad memory.
But you're dodging the questions I asked. Give me just one example of empirical evidence of CO2 causing warming in the Earth's system. I can't think of any.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 14, 2024 19:48:44 GMT
No it doesn't. CO2 in soil does not contribute to photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis primarily occurs in the chloroplasts of plant cells, where carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is taken up through tiny pores called stomata on the leaves. It's why organic matter, like manure or old plant life (fertilizer that is rich in carbon) is used to assist in plant growth, which in turn increases photosynthesis. Yes manure helps plant growth, it provides nutrients and building materials, just not photosynthesis.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 20:12:03 GMT
It's why organic matter, like manure or old plant life (fertilizer that is rich in carbon) is used to assist in plant growth, which in turn increases photosynthesis. Yes manure helps plant growth, it provides nutrients and building materials, just not photosynthesis. The elements of the composition is merely resembling a state, which goes through a process of changes, and since it's all symbiotic it's how do they relate that matters. Increases is the result of causality.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 14, 2024 20:54:25 GMT
Yes manure helps plant growth, it provides nutrients and building materials, just not photosynthesis. The elements of the composition is merely resembling a state, which goes through a process of changes, and since it's all symbiotic it's how do they relate that matters. Increases is the result of causality. Cool.
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