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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 17:35:59 GMT
Yes but can a wasp control a halibut with mind control? No idea but a whale can exude chemicals and probably direct the spray and 'mind control' was only one option. Perhaps there is a form of hypnosis that would suit the bill and we know that exists to various degrees. Meanwhile the monkeys are inventing harpoons … |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 22, 2023 17:44:04 GMT
No idea but a whale can exude chemicals and probably direct the spray and 'mind control' was only one option. Perhaps there is a form of hypnosis that would suit the bill and we know that exists to various degrees. Meanwhile the monkeys are inventing harpoons … The swordfish did. However you are dealing with what happened here not what could happen in some other alien environment. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 17:55:37 GMT
Meanwhile the monkeys are inventing harpoons … The swordfish did. However you are dealing with what happened here not what could happen in some other alien environment. There is a reason why social, intelligent land dwellers with opposable thumbs that gave them dexterity developed technology . I suspect that’s because of a factor of probability and laws of physics and chemistry. Laws of probability and laws of physics and chemistry is universal. We do have other highly intelligent creatures on Earth that seem to have reached a dead end and it doesn’t take a genius to see why . There may be highly intelligent jellyfish or even plants that will or have developed a technology capable of inter stellar travel but I doubt that it exists outside of fantasy . As an aside , it was mooted on a telly programme that dinosaurs may have developed a highly intelligent species and possibly one a few million years ahead of us. I find that interesting . |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 17:56:09 GMT
Meanwhile the monkeys are inventing harpoons … The swordfish did. No they didn’t. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 22, 2023 18:09:55 GMT
The swordfish did. However you are dealing with what happened here not what could happen in some other alien environment. There is a reason why social, intelligent land dwellers with opposable thumbs that gave them dexterity developed technology . I suspect that’s because of a factor of probability and laws of physics and chemistry. Laws of probability and laws of physics and chemistry is universal. We do have other highly intelligent creatures on Earth that seem to have reached a dead end and it doesn’t take a genius to see why . There may be highly intelligent jellyfish or even plants that will or have developed a technology capable of inter stellar travel but I doubt that it exists outside of fantasy . As an aside , it was mooted on a telly programme that dinosaurs may have developed a highly intelligent species and possibly one a few million years ahead of us. I find that interesting . The point is that it is not an immutable law that an opposable thumb is a precursor for being at the top of the evolutionary scale. Other factors may be available, the fact they have not occurred here does not preclude them from happening/having happened in other areas of the universe, I would agree the factors existent upon earth is what has shaped what has actually evolved here although several factors of chance such as asteroids have helped how that came about. One suspects that if no asteroid then intelligent monkeys may have been nipped in the bud by the mere fact of being eaten to extinction. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 18:18:37 GMT
There is a reason why social, intelligent land dwellers with opposable thumbs that gave them dexterity developed technology . I suspect that’s because of a factor of probability and laws of physics and chemistry. Laws of probability and laws of physics and chemistry is universal. We do have other highly intelligent creatures on Earth that seem to have reached a dead end and it doesn’t take a genius to see why . There may be highly intelligent jellyfish or even plants that will or have developed a technology capable of inter stellar travel but I doubt that it exists outside of fantasy . As an aside , it was mooted on a telly programme that dinosaurs may have developed a highly intelligent species and possibly one a few million years ahead of us. I find that interesting . The point is that it is not an immutable law that an opposable thumb is a precursor for being at the top of the evolutionary scale. Other factors may be available, the fact they have not occurred here does not preclude them from happening/having happened in other areas of the universe, I would agree the factors existent upon earth is what has shaped what has actually evolved here although several factors of chance such as asteroids have helped how that came about. One suspects that if no asteroid then intelligent monkeys may have been nipped in the bud by the mere fact of being eaten to extinction. Indeed . It would have been a social dinosaur species capable of developing a crude technology at first and possessing an intelligence and imagination to develop it further . There is no reason to believe that a mind controlling sea dweller would have built a technology by proxy . I suspect that life can only exist in a narrow band of environments, an intelligent one in an even narrower one . Let alone an intelligent species with both the mental capacity and physical attributes to build a technology capable of inter stellar travel. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 22, 2023 18:32:01 GMT
The point is that it is not an immutable law that an opposable thumb is a precursor for being at the top of the evolutionary scale. Other factors may be available, the fact they have not occurred here does not preclude them from happening/having happened in other areas of the universe, I would agree the factors existent upon earth is what has shaped what has actually evolved here although several factors of chance such as asteroids have helped how that came about. One suspects that if no asteroid then intelligent monkeys may have been nipped in the bud by the mere fact of being eaten to extinction. Indeed . It would have been a social dinosaur species capable of developing a crude technology at first and possessing an intelligence and imagination to develop it further . There is no reason to believe that a mind controlling sea dweller would have built a technology by proxy . I suspect that life can only exist in a narrow band of environments, an intelligent one in an even narrower one . Let alone an intelligent species with both the mental capacity and physical attributes to build a technology capable of inter stellar travel. Not necessarily it could have been just ferocious enough to overcome all comers and progress to intelligence is not a given as all that matters is progress to survival. Intelligence may play no part as the pressure to evolve intelligence may not have had time to materialise. Viruses are to all intents and purposes not intelligent but they are excellent survivalists and have the capacity to completely overcome intelligence. The animal that evolves a very successful anti viral system would be very good at surviving but may only have limited intelligence as it is not needed. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 18:41:27 GMT
Indeed . It would have been a social dinosaur species capable of developing a crude technology at first and possessing an intelligence and imagination to develop it further . There is no reason to believe that a mind controlling sea dweller would have built a technology by proxy . I suspect that life can only exist in a narrow band of environments, an intelligent one in an even narrower one . Let alone an intelligent species with both the mental capacity and physical attributes to build a technology capable of inter stellar travel. Not necessarily it could have been just ferocious enough to overcome all comers and progress to intelligence is not a given as all that matters is progress to survival. Intelligence may play no part as the pressure to evolve intelligence may not have had time to materialise. Viruses are to all intents and purposes not intelligent but they are excellent survivalists and have the capacity to completely overcome intelligence. The animal that evolves a very successful anti viral system would be very good at surviving but may only have limited intelligence as it is not needed. I’m not sure what you are getting at here . Evolution is all about survival yes. An intelligent species can prevail over an intelligent one , in fact it could be said that intelligence may be a liability . Evolution being a factor in a sea dweller developing mind control over a land dwelling creature and developing a technology by proxy is well outside of evolutions remit . |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 22, 2023 19:55:14 GMT
Not necessarily it could have been just ferocious enough to overcome all comers and progress to intelligence is not a given as all that matters is progress to survival. Intelligence may play no part as the pressure to evolve intelligence may not have had time to materialise. Viruses are to all intents and purposes not intelligent but they are excellent survivalists and have the capacity to completely overcome intelligence. The animal that evolves a very successful anti viral system would be very good at surviving but may only have limited intelligence as it is not needed. I’m not sure what you are getting at here . Evolution is all about survival yes. An intelligent species can prevail over an intelligent one , in fact it could be said that intelligence may be a liability . Evolution being a factor in a sea dweller developing mind control over a land dwelling creature and developing a technology by proxy is well outside of evolutions remit . What I am driving at is evolution is influenced greatly by events. Perhaps we are bogged down on the whale as I was only using that as an example of how some things may come to pass and keeping in the context of the previous posts. It all boils down what animal is best equipped to survive in the existent circumstances it which it finds itself. Intelligence may help but is not an end in itself as I pointed out with viruses. Many beings do survive in proxy relationships as we ourselves are a structure with millions of beings within it, some as slaves, some as helpers, some as fellow travellers and some as parasites. Apparently we only use about 2% of our DNA the rest is the baggage that comes along with it. Who knows what effect that baggage could have if it became active in our structure. The point I am making is an opposable thumb is not of necessity the best survival tool, that survival tool may belong to others who can make that opposable thumb do their bidding and not the bidding of the owner of the opposable thumb. Just as some viruses make you vomit and cough to enable their spread, or drive you mad and scared of water. You are doing their bidding yet they are not on a par with your intelligence. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 20:06:00 GMT
I’m not sure what you are getting at here . Evolution is all about survival yes. An intelligent species can prevail over an intelligent one , in fact it could be said that intelligence may be a liability . Evolution being a factor in a sea dweller developing mind control over a land dwelling creature and developing a technology by proxy is well outside of evolutions remit . What I am driving at is evolution is influenced greatly by events. Perhaps we are bogged down on the whale as I was only using that as an example of how some things may come to pass and keeping in the context of the previous posts. It all boils down what animal is best equipped to survive in the existent circumstances it which it finds itself. Intelligence may help but is not an end in itself as I pointed out with viruses. Many beings do survive in proxy relationships as we ourselves are a structure with millions of beings within it, some as slaves, some as helpers, some as fellow travellers and some as parasites. Apparently we only use about 2% of our DNA the rest is the baggage that comes along with it. Who knows what effect that baggage could have if it became active in our structure. The point I am making is an opposable thumb is not of necessity the best survival tool, that survival tool may belong to others who can make that opposable thumb do their bidding and not the bidding of the owner of the opposable thumb. Just as some viruses make you vomit and cough to enable their spread, or drive you mad and scared of water. You are doing their bidding yet they are not on a par with your intelligence. An opposable thumb is the first step to basic technology. It’s much more efficient and effective than developing mind control over another species. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 22, 2023 20:20:32 GMT
What I am driving at is evolution is influenced greatly by events. Perhaps we are bogged down on the whale as I was only using that as an example of how some things may come to pass and keeping in the context of the previous posts. It all boils down what animal is best equipped to survive in the existent circumstances it which it finds itself. Intelligence may help but is not an end in itself as I pointed out with viruses. Many beings do survive in proxy relationships as we ourselves are a structure with millions of beings within it, some as slaves, some as helpers, some as fellow travellers and some as parasites. Apparently we only use about 2% of our DNA the rest is the baggage that comes along with it. Who knows what effect that baggage could have if it became active in our structure. The point I am making is an opposable thumb is not of necessity the best survival tool, that survival tool may belong to others who can make that opposable thumb do their bidding and not the bidding of the owner of the opposable thumb. Just as some viruses make you vomit and cough to enable their spread, or drive you mad and scared of water. You are doing their bidding yet they are not on a par with your intelligence. An opposable thumb is the first step to basic technology. It’s much more efficient and effective than developing mind control over another species. However some form of mind control has been around far longer and if the opposable thumb arises in an animal that is subject to mind control of some form then... Having basic technology is not the same as having the intelligence to use it. That has to have evolutionary pressure of some form. Squirrels build nests as do birds and a host of other animals with amazing dexterity despite not having opposable thumbs |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 20:55:15 GMT
An opposable thumb is the first step to basic technology. It’s much more efficient and effective than developing mind control over another species. However some form of mind control has been around far longer and if the opposable thumb arises in an animal that is subject to mind control of some form then... Having basic technology is not the same as having the intelligence to use it. That has to have evolutionary pressure of some form. Squirrels build nests as do birds and a host of other animals with amazing dexterity despite not having opposable thumbs I don’t know of any mind control comparable to technology by proxy, let alone advanced technology by proxy . I did acknowledge your second point by this “I suspect that life can only exist in a narrow band of environments, an intelligent one in an even narrower one . Let alone an intelligent species with both the mental capacity and physical attributes to build a technology capable of inter stellar travel.” I don’t think birds nests can be defined as technology in any sense that is comparable to ours . |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 22, 2023 21:23:10 GMT
The swordfish did. However you are dealing with what happened here not what could happen in some other alien environment. There is a reason why social, intelligent land dwellers with opposable thumbs that gave them dexterity developed technology . I suspect that’s because of a factor of probability and laws of physics and chemistry. Laws of probability and laws of physics and chemistry is universal. We do have other highly intelligent creatures on Earth that seem to have reached a dead end and it doesn’t take a genius to see why . There may be highly intelligent jellyfish or even plants that will or have developed a technology capable of inter stellar travel but I doubt that it exists outside of fantasy . As an aside , it was mooted on a telly programme that dinosaurs may have developed a highly intelligent species and possibly one a few million years ahead of us. I find that interesting . According to Professor Google, pandas, lemurs, frogs, possums and more also have opposable thumbs. Opposable thumbs aren't necessary to the building of complicated structures. Bird-built nests are complicated structures. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 22, 2023 21:28:15 GMT
There is a reason why social, intelligent land dwellers with opposable thumbs that gave them dexterity developed technology . I suspect that’s because of a factor of probability and laws of physics and chemistry. Laws of probability and laws of physics and chemistry is universal. We do have other highly intelligent creatures on Earth that seem to have reached a dead end and it doesn’t take a genius to see why . There may be highly intelligent jellyfish or even plants that will or have developed a technology capable of inter stellar travel but I doubt that it exists outside of fantasy . As an aside , it was mooted on a telly programme that dinosaurs may have developed a highly intelligent species and possibly one a few million years ahead of us. I find that interesting . According to Professor Google, pandas, lemurs, frogs, possums and more also have opposable thumbs. Opposable thumbs aren't necessary to the building of complicated structures. Bird-built nests are complicated structures. So are wasps nests but they are not an example of technology comparable to human technology. An opposable thumb is vital to the kind of dexterity to create basic tools leading to technology as we know it . I’ve already said that opposable thumbs are not the only factor , intelligence, social structures . Language etc . |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 22, 2023 21:29:13 GMT
According to Professor Google, pandas, lemurs, frogs, possums and more also have opposable thumbs. Opposable thumbs aren't necessary to the building of complicated structures. Bird-built nests are complicated structures. So are wasps nests but they are not an example of technology comparable to human technology. An opposable thumb is vital to the kind of dexterity to create basic tools leading to technology as we know it . I’ve already said that opposable thumbs are not the only factor , intelligence, social structures . Language etc . Sorry. I didn't know. I try not to read your posts.  Dolphins are intelligent, social animals with a sort of language. They have something akin to a beak. You would think they'd be capable of coming up with something if dexterity, intelligence, language, etc., are the qualifiers. |
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