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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 15:17:22 GMT
And bring back the real Tories. Who were/are the real Tories of recent times, can you give names...? Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg. Suella Braverman. Priti Patel Sir John Redwood Sir Bill Cash Mark Jenkinson Mark Francois Iain Duncan Smith Michael Fabricant Bernard Jenkin Andrea Jenkyns Bill Wiggin Ben Bradley... etc etc. I believe of the current 350 conservative MP's, no more than 70 or 80 of them are proper centre right Conservatives. Which is why this conservative government are so unpopular with Conservative voters. |
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Post by patman post on Jan 1, 2024 15:50:03 GMT
Who were/are the real Tories of recent times, can you give names...? Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg. Suella Braverman. Priti Patel Sir John Redwood Sir Bill Cash Mark Jenkinson Mark Francois Iain Duncan Smith Michael Fabricant Bernard Jenkin Andrea Jenkyns Bill Wiggin Ben Bradley... etc etc. I believe of the current 350 conservative MP's, no more than 70 or 80 of them are proper centre right Conservatives. Which is why this conservative government are so unpopular with Conservative voters. I suggest those in your selection of “real Tories” are a substantial part of why the party is currently so unpopular. There are too many factions splitting the party and, unless Sunak can quieten them and give people six months of increased take-home pay before the election, the Tories are likely to lose. In fact, I think the election is Starmer’s to lose despite most of the press being Tory mouthpieces… |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 16:02:29 GMT
Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg. Suella Braverman. Priti Patel Sir John Redwood Sir Bill Cash Mark Jenkinson Mark Francois Iain Duncan Smith Michael Fabricant Bernard Jenkin Andrea Jenkyns Bill Wiggin Ben Bradley... etc etc. I believe of the current 350 conservative MP's, no more than 70 or 80 of them are proper centre right Conservatives. Which is why this conservative government are so unpopular with Conservative voters. I suggest those in your selection of “real Tories” are a substantial part of why the party is currently so unpopular. There are too many factions splitting the party and, unless Sunak can quieten them and give people six months of increased take-home pay before the election, the Tories are likely to lose. In fact, I think the election is Starmer’s to lose despite most of the press being Tory mouthpieces… So in your opinion the government would be more popular with Conservative voters if all conservative MP's were all like Sunak, pro EU centrists! Pat, I don't think you have quite got the gist of what's going on. The reason this small 'c' conservative government is so unpopular with Conservative voters is because it's not a centre right Conservative government. Believe me, Conservative voters, and many voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris in 2019, are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative government. The biggest criticism of Sunak is that he is not a Conservative. He is a pro EU centrist geek. |
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Post by patman post on Jan 1, 2024 16:24:06 GMT
I suggest those in your selection of “real Tories” are a substantial part of why the party is currently so unpopular. There are too many factions splitting the party and, unless Sunak can quieten them and give people six months of increased take-home pay before the election, the Tories are likely to lose. In fact, I think the election is Starmer’s to lose despite most of the press being Tory mouthpieces… So in your opinion the government would be more popular with Conservative voters if all conservative MP's were all like Sunak, pro EU centrists! Pat, I don't think you have quite got the gist of what's going on. The reason this small 'c' conservative government is so unpopular with Conservative voters is because it's not a centre right Conservative government. Believe me, Conservative voters, and many voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris in 2019, are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative government. The biggest criticism of Sunak is that he is not a Conservative. He is a pro EU centrist geek. I don’t go in for labels of -ists, -ites, -isms, etc. I leave those who follow what their favoured news outlet primes them to say. But looking at the situation the UK currently finds itself in (with part benefiting from being virtually in the EU while the rest suffers from being outside), childishly cutting itself off from the world’s largest trading bloc — which happens to be on its doorstep — seems bizarre. Seeking trade and other accords with the EU seems a sensible approach, especially as the raft of other promised “major trade agreements” around the world don’t seem to be amounting to much. As for being “centrist” — surely, if the centre embraces the majority of voters, it seems a sensible approach, especially if it can mask (or preferably obliterate) the dishonesty, ineptness and lies of previous Tory administrations… |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 16:59:37 GMT
So in your opinion the government would be more popular with Conservative voters if all conservative MP's were all like Sunak, pro EU centrists! Pat, I don't think you have quite got the gist of what's going on. The reason this small 'c' conservative government is so unpopular with Conservative voters is because it's not a centre right Conservative government. Believe me, Conservative voters, and many voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris in 2019, are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative government. The biggest criticism of Sunak is that he is not a Conservative. He is a pro EU centrist geek. I don’t go in for labels of -ists, -ites, -isms, etc. I leave those who follow what their favoured news outlet primes them to say. But looking at the situation the UK currently finds itself in (with part benefiting from being virtually in the EU while the rest suffers from being outside), childishly cutting itself off from the world’s largest trading bloc — which happens to be on its doorstep — seems bizarre. Seeking trade and other accords with the EU seems a sensible approach, especially as the raft of other promised “major trade agreements” around the world don’t seem to be amounting to much. As for being “centrist” — surely, if the centre embraces the majority of voters, it seems a sensible approach, especially if it can mask (or preferably obliterate) the dishonesty, ineptness and lies of previous Tory administrations… Who is suffering from being outside of the EU? I think you may find that EU states are suffering particularly Germany, the so called powerhouse of the EU. One of the reasons the conservatives since 2019 have struggled to gain the confidence of the electorate is because so many conservative MP's are so obviously pro EU, like Sunak. You talk of the worlds largest trading bloc, but the UK joined the EEC in 1973, and in 1975 we actually voted to remain in the EEC because it made sense to belong to a non political free trade area. What we didn't vote to join is a very centralised political union governed by unelected bureaucrats who issue diktats and fines from behind closed doors in of all places, Belgium. The British people would never have voted for that which is why in 1992 John 'The Bastard' Major refused to allow a referendum. An act of treason he should have been prosecuted for. The 'centre' obviously does not embrace the majority of voters, there is a malaise in British politics right now because Starmer has moved Labour to the centre, and Sunak has moved the Tories to the centre. Labour and Tory policies are so similar it's almost pointless having two parties. But that is not what the electorate want. Politicians are arrogant towards the electorate, this will prove to be good news for Reform UK, as it was for UKIP. |
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Post by patman post on Jan 1, 2024 17:26:43 GMT
The UK joined The Common Market before I was born. It's made sense to me from the time I was even aware the UK was in it. Now, while the new non-membership status provides me with plenty of work, I can see the obstacles to business and trade it's causing — and I don't see that the Right-Wing anti EU stance and rhetoric is going to benefit the UK or its residents. In fact, I can see that it's providing ammunition to those regions that want their independence. It would not surprise me if parties in Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales (and even Cornwall) intensified their demands for independence over the next couple of decades.
I can't see Tice and Farage hitting it off when all they can do together or separately is chip away at Tory votes and ease Labour into power.
I'm hoping the next election will start the cleansing of UK politics by ridding the Commons of all its disgraced independents, liars and sleaze and self-serving nonentities...
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 1, 2024 17:38:02 GMT
Michael Heseltine. I wasn't a fan during the Thatcher years, but he is at least a Tory I can now relate to. I would have thought you were a Heseltine fan, most pro EU types are. And Dominic Grieve, Kenneth Clarke, Rory Stewart, Andy Street... |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 17:44:44 GMT
I would have thought you were a Heseltine fan, most pro EU types are. And Dominic Grieve, Kenneth Clarke, Rory Stewart, Andy Street... Indeed, they're a damned disgrace. They should cross the floor. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 1, 2024 17:53:05 GMT
I suggest those in your selection of “real Tories” are a substantial part of why the party is currently so unpopular. There are too many factions splitting the party and, unless Sunak can quieten them and give people six months of increased take-home pay before the election, the Tories are likely to lose. In fact, I think the election is Starmer’s to lose despite most of the press being Tory mouthpieces… So in your opinion the government would be more popular with Conservative voters if all conservative MP's were all like Sunak, pro EU centrists! Pat, I don't think you have quite got the gist of what's going on. The reason this small 'c' conservative government is so unpopular with Conservative voters is because it's not a centre right Conservative government. Believe me, Conservative voters, and many voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris in 2019, are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative government. The biggest criticism of Sunak is that he is not a Conservative. He is a pro EU centrist geek. IMO, the proof of the pudding either way will be in how well Reform do. They won't win anything of course but if they get a substantial share of the vote that would tend to indicate that Red is correct. If they bomb completely, then Pat's probably nearer the mark. I suspect that Red is correct but whether the electorate can be weaned off of their tribal voting is another matter. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 1, 2024 17:56:38 GMT
And Dominic Grieve, Kenneth Clarke, Rory Stewart, Andy Street... Indeed, they're a damned disgrace. They should cross the floor. No. You just don't want the Tories to be a broad church. The problem is that the populists have caused a lot of issues for the party since 2016, May couldn't control them and Boris encouraged them, Truss was one and Sunak can't control them. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 18:02:34 GMT
IMO, the proof of the pudding either way will be in how well Reform do. They won't win anything of course but if they get a substantial share of the vote that would tend to indicate that Red is correct. If they bomb completely, then Pat's probably nearer the mark. I suspect that Red is correct but whether the electorate can be weaned off of their tribal voting is another matter. I think UKIP is a good indicator of what happens when voters are ignored. And lets not forget, it took UKIP 20 years to get to 12% of the vote, so far it's taken Reform 5 years to get to 10% of the vote and in my opinion that's because the conservatives are not very Conservative. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 1, 2024 18:07:49 GMT
Indeed, they're a damned disgrace. They should cross the floor. No. You just don't want the Tories to be a broad church. The problem is that the populists have caused a lot of issues for the party since 2016, May couldn't control them and Boris encouraged them, Truss was one and Sunak can't control them. That's nonsense. The reason the Tories are having such a shit time is because nobody has forgotten the Covid catastrophe and all the people we lost. |
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Post by ratcliff on Jan 1, 2024 18:09:23 GMT
Indeed, they're a damned disgrace. They should cross the floor. No. You just don't want the Tories to be a broad church. The problem is that the populists have caused a lot of issues for the party since 2016, May couldn't control them and Boris encouraged them, Truss was one and Sunak can't control them. Party members voted for Liz Truss , she was the Conservative they wanted, not the conservative Sunak - ''other'' forces re-engineered the ''right'' result for them and appointed Sunak |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 1, 2024 18:20:56 GMT
Indeed, they're a damned disgrace. They should cross the floor. No. You just don't want the Tories to be a broad church. The problem is that the populists have caused a lot of issues for the party since 2016, May couldn't control them and Boris encouraged them, Truss was one and Sunak can't control them. No no no, that's rubbish. The Tories don't have to be a 'broad church' the reason the UK Conservative party is the most successeful political party in the world is because since 1834 it has been an unashamedly centre right political party. Tory problems since 2016 have all been self inflicted. We voted to leave the EU, yet Theresa May was pro EU, Boris was pro EU and now Sunak is pro EU and non of them took immigration seriously because they didn't want to upset the EU. They just don't get it. Since 2010 the party has been slowly moving to the centre, this must be corrected. This election will be a big wake up call for the Conservatives, and a much needed wake up call. If the Conservative party want to survive they must move back to their traditional ground which is the centre right of UK politics. If they do and I'm sure they will, the Conservative party will continue to be the most powerful force in UK politics, but they must get rid of pro EU centrists like Sunak. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 1, 2024 18:28:53 GMT
IMO, the proof of the pudding either way will be in how well Reform do. They won't win anything of course but if they get a substantial share of the vote that would tend to indicate that Red is correct. If they bomb completely, then Pat's probably nearer the mark. I suspect that Red is correct but whether the electorate can be weaned off of their tribal voting is another matter. I think UKIP is a good indicator of what happens when voters are ignored. And lets not forget, it took UKIP 20 years to get to 12% of the vote, so far it's taken Reform 5 years to get to 10% of the vote and in my opinion that's because the conservatives are not very Conservative. Completely agree and the "UKIP effect" is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote the above.
And of course UKIP demonstrated that you don't need to win to be massively influential. It'll be interesting to see if Reform can do the same.
They'll get my vote.
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