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Post by piglet on Dec 17, 2023 12:04:28 GMT
On GB news this morning he was discussing his possible re entry to mainline politics, hes undecided, what shook me really was that he was suggesting that the Tories responded to the needs of the supra rich, that government decisions were made behind closed doors.
The upshot of this is that democracy does not exist, voting etc is a waste of time.
Looking at the polarisation of the world it is the democrats in the usa, western europe, the EU v the rich in Russia China the middle east etc.
You as an individual have no say in anything, now more so than ever, looking at it like that, it all makes sense. The trick in the west is too keep the masses on side, not a problem in the east. Parliament is vaudeville, the royal variety performance, its on tonight, a puppet show.
And its all a land grab, like the Russians in the Ukraine, Taiwan etc, so they can make even more money. And power. The conflict keeps both in check, if one system gains ultimate power, watch out.
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Post by wapentake on Dec 17, 2023 12:07:55 GMT
On GB news this morning he was discussing his possible re entry to mainline politics, hes undecided, what shook me really was that he was suggesting that the Tories responded to the needs of the supra rich, that government decisions were made behind closed doors. The upshot of this is that democracy does not exist, voting etc is a waste of time.Looking at the polarisation of the world it is the democrats in the usa, western europe, the EU v the rich in Russia China the middle east etc. You as an individual have no say in anything, now more so than ever, looking at it like that, it all makes sense. The trick in the west is too keep the masses on side, not a problem in the east. Parliament is vaudeville, the royal variety performance, its on tonight, a puppet show. And it’s all a land grab, like the Russians in the Ukraine, Taiwan etc, so they can make even more money. And power. The conflict keeps both in check, if one system gains ultimate power, watch out. Increasingly that’s true because Westminster has become an emulsion. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 12:30:49 GMT
I fear that there might very well be some truth in what you state
Who would ever have believed 20 years ago that The Republican Party in the US no longer have any meaningful interest in the defence of Western / democratic Europe, and that they ( The Republicans ) are contemplating feeding a newly independent nation to the wolf that is Russia.
What would Ronald Reagan have said ?
This is Populism, and there are people in this country of the Populist Right with similar views, people like Nigel Farage, who believes that its not Russia's fault, its all the fault of the EU and NATO, these people are deluded beyond comprehension.
Imagine if Farage was Prime Minister, and Trump was President of the US, the UK sucking up to Trump, a man who has no real interest in NATO, the defence of Western democracy or Europe, what would the purpose be of such a relationship. ?
The sooner people realise and understand that OUR security, our defence is best served by us working and co-operating with our European allies first and foremost, the better.
Our threats are the same as Europes threats, our back yard is their back yard, Putin has meddled in Moldova, Georgia, and now in Ukraine, he has to be contained or else who is next, and under the Republicans, theres not a great deal of appetite for going to the defence of those threatened by Russia.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 17, 2023 12:44:38 GMT
On GB news this morning he was discussing his possible re entry to mainline politics, hes undecided, what shook me really was that he was suggesting that the Tories responded to the needs of the supra rich, that government decisions were made behind closed doors. The upshot of this is that democracy does not exist, voting etc is a waste of time. Looking at the polarisation of the world it is the democrats in the usa, western europe, the EU v the rich in Russia China the middle east etc. You as an individual have no say in anything, now more so than ever, looking at it like that, it all makes sense. The trick in the west is too keep the masses on side, not a problem in the east. Parliament is vaudeville, the royal variety performance, its on tonight, a puppet show. And its all a land grab, like the Russians in the Ukraine, Taiwan etc, so they can make even more money. And power. The conflict keeps both in check, if one system gains ultimate power, watch out. this might be a first. I agree absolutely. I’ve said a lot of what follows before The first past the post system was designed at a time when only five per cent of the population had a vote. No woman could vote and the requirement to hold freehold land of value sufficient to provide a rent of fifty shillings a year ensured that only one man in ten had a vote. When my youngest did her A level history she researched the details of the Chartist Riots. She quickly found the 1832 Reform Act which was supposed to widen male suffrage and terminate the worst excesses of corruption like Old Sarum and University Constituencies giving university students TWO votes actually did very little outside London. The act moved from freehold land ownership to property ownership, the property could be on leasehold land, so many Londoners suddenly had a vote where the house they owned stood on land gifted to a Royal Duke. But in Wales you could buy a street for the £10 minimum property value, which is why by the year before the riots a mere SEVEN men had acquired the vote in Brecon, and one, an ancestor of mine, the owner of a pub, would not have it had the separate brewhouse up the street been considered part of the same land transaction. Wikipedia today holds the data previously assembled by Keele University that shows with three main parties over 500 westminster seats elect an MP with the support of barely 30% of the average 65,000 souls with the vote per constituency, and that fewer than 100 seats have a majority slim enough to impact who gets in. Policy for decades has been targeted at the electors in those seats and damn the rest they don't matter. Proper PR is little better look at Belgium and tbe d’Hondt system spreads votes on a buggins turn basis across the big four. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 17, 2023 12:50:05 GMT
I fear that there might very well be some truth in what you state Who would ever have believed 20 years ago that The Republican Party in the US no longer have any meaningful interest in the defence of Western / democratic Europe, and that they ( The Republicans ) are contemplating feeding a newly independent nation to the wolf that is Russia. What would Ronald Reagan have said ? This is Populism, and there are people in this country of the Populist Right with similar views, people like Nigel Farage, who believes that its not Russia's fault, its all the fault of the EU and NATO, these people are deluded beyond comprehension. Imagine if Farage was Prime Minister, and Trump was President of the US, the UK sucking up to Trump, a man who has no real interest in NATO, the defence of Western democracy or Europe, what would the purpose be of such a relationship. ? The sooner people realise and understand that OUR security, our defence is best served by us working and co-operating with our European allies first and foremost, the better. Our threats are the same as Europes threats, our back yard is their back yard, Putin has meddled in Moldova, Georgia, and now in Ukraine, he has to be contained or else who is next, and under the Republicans, theres not a great deal of appetite for going to the defence of those threatened by Russia. That was a post full of contradiction Sydney. |
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Post by om15 on Dec 17, 2023 13:49:56 GMT
All sounds very good at first glance, but hang on a minute, wasn't it Trump who drew our attention the the fact that the USA was pouring money into NATO and, with the exception of the UK, few European countries were putting in the agreed amount of 2% . His particular point was that Germany in particular (under Missis Merkel) was not pulling their financial weight. Are we to believe that you seriously consider that France and Germany are better allies to the UK than the USA? have you ever read anything at all about history? Germany, whose political imbecility lead to this migrant emergency, and France whose police and coast guards are helping launch the boats across Le Manche as we speak. Europeans are our natural enemies and twice in the last century the USA has stepped in to prevent us from losing the world wars the Europeans started. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europeFrom the Guardian an article published at the time (July 2018), it is the Guardian so it must be true mustn't it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 14:47:02 GMT
On GB news this morning he was discussing his possible re entry to mainline politics, hes undecided, what shook me really was that he was suggesting that the Tories responded to the needs of the supra rich, that government decisions were made behind closed doors. The upshot of this is that democracy does not exist, voting etc is a waste of time. Looking at the polarisation of the world it is the democrats in the usa, western europe, the EU v the rich in Russia China the middle east etc. You as an individual have no say in anything, now more so than ever, looking at it like that, it all makes sense. The trick in the west is too keep the masses on side, not a problem in the east. Parliament is vaudeville, the royal variety performance, its on tonight, a puppet show. And its all a land grab, like the Russians in the Ukraine, Taiwan etc, so they can make even more money. And power. The conflict keeps both in check, if one system gains ultimate power, watch out. We have always been governed by and for the wealthy elites, who are the ones making all the decisions. Democracy is an illusion. Most of us sit in seats so safe for one party or another that voting is literally a waste of time, and the only "choice" we have in terms of who governs us is between two sets of establishmentarian stooges, there to win our favour on behalf of the ruling elites. And these ruling elites control most of our media and use it to manipulate how we think. They dont actually need to do away with our illusory democracy, as long as our choices can be limited to two sets of establishmentarians, and they can persuade enough of us to think in ways that they want us to. It was ever thus. Even alternative viewpoints and agendas such as the push for Brexit, or the utterings of GB News, are tolerated because they too in their way still serve the interests of the establishment. Any threat of real change in the structures of society in terms of who rules us - whether from the left or right - will be targeted and demonised, as happened to Labour when some of it sought to champion the interests of the millions over those of the wealthy elites. Reform on the right will also never be allowed to succeed until or unless it is prepared to keep the interests of the wealthy elites paramount. If democracy changed anything, they would never allow it. Until we the sheeple en masse stop believing what we are told, whether it be by the BBC or GB News, the Mail or the Guardian, the Sun or the Mirror, and wake up to what is really going on, we are doomed to be the playthings and slaves of the ruling elites. Because there is one fundamental truth. Whatever is going wrong in this country is going to be down to those ruling elites in control of everything, not powerless scapegoat groups they want to deflect our anger onto. If they wanted to stop or severely curtail migration into this country they easily could. The ruling elites dont actually want to because ever more people provides them with cheap labour whilst greatly increasing the value of their property portfolios. And for as long as they keep on coming, they make the ideal scapegoat group to deflect public anger on to. Because the only real threat to the ruling elites would be us actually starting to blame them in large numbers for all that is wrong. We the sheeple need to stop reading what we want to read, watching what we want to watch, and believing what we want to believe - and what they want us to believe - and wake up to what is really going on. It is not about whether Starmer is a better leader than Sunak, or Labour a better potential government. Most of the differences will be froth. And Soundbites. Because both parties are utterly under the control of establismentarians there to serve the interests of the wealthy elites and do what they are told for the trappings of office. It doesnt matter which of them gets the most votes. The wealthy elite establishment is bound to get in. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 14:56:43 GMT
All sounds very good at first glance, but hang on a minute, wasn't it Trump who drew our attention the the fact that the USA was pouring money into NATO and, with the exception of the UK, few European countries were putting in the agreed amount of 2% . His particular point was that Germany in particular (under Missis Merkel) was not pulling their financial weight. Are we to believe that you seriously consider that France and Germany are better allies to the UK than the USA? have you ever read anything at all about history? Germany, whose political imbecility lead to this migrant emergency, and France whose police and coast guards are helping launch the boats across Le Manche as we speak. Europeans are our natural enemies and twice in the last century the USA has stepped in to prevent us from losing the world wars the Europeans started. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europeFrom the Guardian an article published at the time (July 2018), it is the Guardian so it must be true mustn't it. There is no such thing as a state which is a natural enemy. Whether or not a state is a natural enemy depends very much on who is in control of it. Nazi Germany was a natural enemy. Democratic Germany isn't. And France for much of recent history has been an ally and not an enemy. And both Germany and France are fellow members of NATO and our allies. The USSR was a natural enemy. A democratic Russia would be much less likely to be, the Putin is a natural enemy because he still thinks in Cold War terms. |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 17, 2023 14:59:11 GMT
The party is seeking to heap more pressure on Rishi Sunak over the small boats crisis and his attempts to get Rwanda deportation flights off the ground. Mr Farage still has an honorary position with Reform, but sources told the Observer today that they expect him to take a frontline role in the new year as it seeks to build on a rise in support. It is planning to focus on immigration in the run up to the next election - which has to be called within a year of today. The move could cause trouble for Mr Sunak and help a Labour Party already a long way ahead in the polls by splitting the Tory vote.
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Post by om15 on Dec 17, 2023 15:40:48 GMT
Why are they helping to launch an armada of up to 1000 unknown and possibly hostile foreigners from their shores to our shores every day then? With friends like that who needs enemies.
The French are our enemies.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 16:35:40 GMT
All sounds very good at first glance, but hang on a minute, wasn't it Trump who drew our attention the the fact that the USA was pouring money into NATO and, with the exception of the UK, few European countries were putting in the agreed amount of 2% . His particular point was that Germany in particular (under Missis Merkel) was not pulling their financial weight. Are we to believe that you seriously consider that France and Germany are better allies to the UK than the USA? have you ever read anything at all about history? Germany, whose political imbecility lead to this migrant emergency, and France whose police and coast guards are helping launch the boats across Le Manche as we speak. Europeans are our natural enemies and twice in the last century the USA has stepped in to prevent us from losing the world wars the Europeans started. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europeFrom the Guardian an article published at the time (July 2018), it is the Guardian so it must be true mustn't it. It is widely known that Donald Trump (A) does not see supporting Ukraine as a priority, or in America's interests, and (B) that he see's China as the prime threat to US interests and not Russia. ARTICLE : NEW YORK TIMES - PUBLISHED 9th DECEMBER 2023 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For 74 years, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization has been America’s most important military alliance. Presidents of both parties have seen NATO as a force multiplier enhancing the influence of the United States by uniting countries on both sides of the Atlantic in a vow to defend one another. Donald J. Trump has made it clear that he sees NATO as a drain on American resources by freeloaders. He has held that view for at least a quarter of a century. In his 2000 book, “The America We Deserve,” Mr. Trump wrote that “pulling back from Europe would save this country millions of dollars annually.” As president, he repeatedly threatened a United States withdrawal from the alliance. www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/us/politics/trump-2025-nato.htmlBoth France and Germany ( formerly Federal Republic of Germany ) have been allies of the UK for generations, and co-members of NATO. The Second World War ended almost 80 years ago, time to move on and live in the modern world. The United States fought two wars with Britain ..... a long time ago. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 17, 2023 18:20:50 GMT
Europe (and more specifically the EU) does not have a functioning defence mechanism - it couldn't even assist Ukraine without US involvement.
Anyone who suggest that we backtrack on our involvement in NATO for increased European cooperation obviously does not have our best interests at heart.
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Post by wapentake on Dec 17, 2023 18:36:40 GMT
Europe (and more specifically the EU) does not have a functioning defence mechanism - it couldn't even assist Ukraine without US involvement. Anyone who suggest that we backtrack on our involvement in NATO for increased European cooperation obviously does not have our best interests at heart. Yes we need Nato and the European nations need to get their hands deeper in their pockets,they must also plan for the event of the USA becoming more distant and being a lot more reliant on each other militarily and that doesn’t need the eu. |
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Post by piglet on Dec 18, 2023 11:28:46 GMT
If you can imagine the differences between the supra rich, ten people or whoever in a room are never going to agree completely on anything. A chocolate magnate for instance, is going to have a different view to a cobalt magnate, this may play out in the parliaments of europe and the USA. If you are rich, you are going to make sure you stay that way, corruption, not fairness is the only way. Why stand by when someone wants to put the price of cocoa down, or use the fields to dig cobalt?
Dictatorships dont think like that, do as your told or die. Division is the worst of all faults in the west when faced by an enemy, the enemy never goes away. The problem for democracy, or paying lip service to it, is the EU, its blatantly authoritarian for its own sake, if it gains complete control it will be the western bloc v the eastern one.
Id buy tickets to watch that. The USA have always been insular, and i understand that, why get invilved in the spat at n0 43, ive got my own problems. What i would do is step in when europe had slugged itself to death, and impose order. Whatever the USA concept of that is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 14:25:58 GMT
The party is seeking to heap more pressure on Rishi Sunak over the small boats crisis and his attempts to get Rwanda deportation flights off the ground. Mr Farage still has an honorary position with Reform, but sources told the Observer today that they expect him to take a frontline role in the new year as it seeks to build on a rise in support. It is planning to focus on immigration in the run up to the next election - which has to be called within a year of today. The move could cause trouble for Mr Sunak and help a Labour Party already a long way ahead in the polls by splitting the Tory vote.
For once I pretty much agree with you. Threatening to split the Tory vote will massively help Labour. But they are playing a high risk game of chicken, hoping to so terrify the Tories with such a prospect, that the Tories themselves shift onto their ground and move ever further to the right to head off Reform. Such tactics worked for Farage and UKIP before. UKIP never won a parliamentary seat and only ever held one because a Tory MP defected to it. And yet by threatening to do so much damage to the Tory vote over the EU, using uncontrolled immigration from Europe as a large leverage issue, they got the Tories to agree to a referendum on EU membership as a means of heading the threat off. And the rest, as they say, is history. The same tactics are in play again over the immigration. They cannot hope to possibly win an election and are highly unlikely to win any seats. But they hope to scare the Tories into doing what they want them to do on immigration and get very tough. The problem of course is that the ruling establishment elites, whose pockets both main party leaderships are in, don't actually want to curb immigration all that much because it serves the ruling elites' interests too well. So the Tories might talk tough to head Reform off. And double down on gimmicks like the Rwanda policy which will only affect a few hundred people but plays well to some of the gallery. But in the unlikely event that the Tories got in again, all their tough talking will deliver little because the people whose interests they are really there to serve don't want it to. Labour of course will do little to curb immigration either for much the same reasons. Reform is probably playing the long game, and immigration is a wise wedge issue for a party of the right to adopt. Because the common assumption by so many that all policies have to be in the centre to be popular is actually wrong. Majority public opinion might be in the centre on some issues, but on many others it is well to the left, and on many more is well to the right. And immigration happens to be one of those policy areas where majority opinion happens to swing rightwards. Reform is hoping that a demonstrated failure of either main party to deliver on immigration will result in growing support of the public for Reform, with immigration as a wedge issue. And they thereby hope to wag the Tory dog as they did over Brexit. But their fight might be tougher than even they realise. On Brexit important elements of the wealthy establishmentarian elites were themselves in favour of it. The ruling elites in control of everything were unable therefore to unite against it. That might not be the case here. Because the ruling elites' interests are so well served my mass immigration, that they might as a bloc behind the scenes be united in not wanting it too severely curtailed. And if they are united against something they will have all the resources of the deep state at their beck and call. And if this pans out, as soon as Reform start to become a credible threat to the interests of the ruling elites, expect to see smear campaigns in the media, and newspapers tipped off about any unsavoury shenanigans by anyone involved with Reform uncovered by the secret services. Expect agents provocateurs claiming to be Reform members or at least Reform supporters appearing all over social media saying obnoxious shit. They will probably try and insinuate that Reform are a bunch of far right racists. These same tactics were used against those of us on left when we were for a time seen as a threat. Note that it has mostly stopped now that the Establishments people are back in control of Labour. What they did to us they are just as capable of doing to Reform if it poses a threat to the interests of the ruling elites. If and when I start seeing smear tactics combined with a proliferation of indefensible commentary by people claiming to be supporters online, I will recognise what is actually happening very quickly. And because no large group is ever devoid of a few bad apples, any in Reform uncovered by the deep state will be thrown to the media to add to the impression of extremism and bad character they will be trying to pin on Reform. It is highly likely that MI5 has files on Farage and Tice already, just as they no doubt do on Corbyn. |
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