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Post by Orac on Dec 15, 2023 9:35:01 GMT
There is a lot here i agree with. I think the notion that we can transcend reality is a dangerous indulgence that encourages dishonesty. Whatever the fundamental nature of the world is, it is clear enough to me that i'm not nearly of the level of cleverness needed to fathom it. I think the basic values may sound boring, but they are key here - identify our weaknesses and put effort into correcting those things we can see and do something about.I have another notion to add here, but it is difficult to explain. There is a context to every perception. If you stand in a room and think about what you can see, it becomes clear there is not just the wallpaper and the mantelpiece and the carpet in your mind. There is also a context - or background world. This object is sensed (perhaps) or produced by your mind and it is the background colouring to everything you see. If this mental object changes then everything shifts. We don't have a word for this perceptual object, but i think this object is also produced (or altered) in a dream and it is why a dream feels like a world, rather than merely watching a light show. This is just my theory btw - i have tried but failed so far get a flicker of recognition from anyone i have explained it to. I'm in danger of going off-topic ..ha I would call your description of another context "the spirit of place". You can feel it everywhere in Nature too. Areas, houses, cities, regions, all seem to have it. Walk through a forest and it's there, a kind of presence. Sit in a desert and it's there. Humans have become deaf and blind to it in modern times but our ancestors knew it. People who live close to Nature pick it up. I've noticed it especially among Africans. In a city, you can also sense it. Most aren't attuned to it as humans are very busy and their minds are full of the things that drive modern life, but it's there all the same, that presiding presence. Go to an abandoned site and it's there. What it is is a bit of a mystery. I think space has captivated the human imagination in the same way. The cosmos has its own sense of being. I think an astronaut might notice it on a long journey such as one to Mars, say. That cosmic presence might be felt in the seeming nothingness. Possibly because there can be no nothingness. There always seems to be some sense of place, of something. As Earth diminishes with distance perhaps a new spirit of place might wrap the astronaut's perceptions. If the astronaut takes with him a religious view, this may militate against the spirit of place. But as he moves further into another space that space may claim his sense of place and personality. Because for humans, at least, things and places also have a sense of personality. They identify themselves to us through this. It is possibly the source of primitive animism. Here is my version from my self observation. You 'tune' in to these things (spirits?). 'Spirit' is a fine word for this btw A place setting will nudge you towards tuning in a certain direction Contact with people will nudge you to tune in a certain direction. The progressive-transhuman thing has a spirit and you can see its outline in the base assumptions of those captured by it. The dead give-away here is the notion that history has some vanishing point - a place we must inevitably head to and a fate that is futile to resist. This is not a material perception, it's an intangible rule of that world (almost like a spacial dimension) - a background that makes activity make sense. A hypnotist can get you to drop one and pick up another that he points to with his communication and actions. If you have ever had a bad dream and lay awake in bed being genuinely spooked by the prospect of a ghost or monster appearing in your room, even though you know this is a totally illogical expectation, then i feel you have felt the power of one these things. The background colour of a dream can linger with you when you are awake. The thing is, it is ' so there' that you can't see it - like the proverbial elephant in the room. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 15, 2023 10:10:56 GMT
Ahhh, those sorts of spirits. Imagine my disappointment.  |
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Post by Vanna on Dec 16, 2023 13:30:19 GMT
I'm a Nordic pagan shaman. The realm or dimension of the "spirits" is a given among this kind, but each shaman is different in how they experience what is beyond the ordinary experience of our reality (or dimension).
Dreams are where I will engage or see the things you are talking about. I know the beautiful realms, the peaceful, stunningly beautiful realm. But there are others that are badass. They contain the same malice we find in our Earthly dimension. The same terrible characters, evil intentions, and frightening landscapes. To visit these is harrowing. To visit the beautiful one/s is a gift. To leave is to have to cross some sort of barrier. You must cross it or you risk remaining behind. You aren't supposed o be there, after all. When you die you go through the natural progress. To visit is to see without belonging.
As for these "spirits" visiting us, I think many are afraid of them. Modern life has more or less banished them because we are constantly in the presence of noise, voices, music and people on TV or the internet and there are many living beings all around us. But if you are isolated, the spirits of place become more apparent. William Wordsworth mentioned this in one of his poems and said "There is a spirit in the woods". I agree with him. That spirit is why some hate the countryside. They are afraid to confront it or engage with it. It presses in on them and they fear it for some reason. It is the thing that scares the average metrosexual. They want to be back where things are familiar and controllable. Where they are more significant and secure.
(This is a great threat, Orac. Please continue with it. I am willing to participate. Maybe even Red will enjoy it if he can have a comforting glass of his own favourite spirits by his side.)
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 16, 2023 23:28:41 GMT
I’d like to add to this discussion
I recall a time in my late teens i spent a few weeks at a sort of ‘retreat’ in the derbyshire countryside. Yes it was part of an organised religious event so maybe my mind was either tuned out of its normal lock to reality or just drifting but it felt there was a sort of spiritual side to almost everything
It was quite strange
And when i had to return to the reality of life and gaving to earnna living you have NO idea how depressing it felt.
A strange week and a bit.
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Post by Vanna on Dec 17, 2023 7:59:44 GMT
I can well understand it. There is something nasty about part of our civilised world. I find it in concrete structures and in huge buildings. Concrete on that scale seems to block out the spiritual. Having a garden or a park nearby can mitigate this.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 18, 2023 6:28:56 GMT
Maybe it is simply that in the words of our local supertramp poet ‘we have no time to stand and stare’. The whole idea of a monastery being a place of contemplation, and the occupants therein being described as ‘contemplatives’ for example.
Both my daughters insist they are to some degree psychic. It is a little unnerving for a bloke with two scientific degrees and a firm conviction that when i die i rot.
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Post by piglet on Dec 18, 2023 12:01:50 GMT
Becoming spiritual isnt hard, its paying attention to the inner workings of your mind and feelings, you become what you give your attention too. To quieten your mind, to relax, meditate, opens you to a new world, i was walking my dog in the obscure fens yesterday, a small gust of wind touched me and it felt like being touched by god, i cant describe the feeling, life can be like that. A lot will laugh at that, fair enough. but im here your there.
I said that it isnt hard.....im sure it is for most, its why your here. Vannas experience is correct, but different to mine, all will be. The next step is to use your mind to create, as well as being basking in nature, the beauty of everything. Driving in my car yesterday, the clouds were grey, but it the distance there were three holes in the clouds where sunlight shone through in rays.
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Post by Vanna on Dec 18, 2023 13:04:43 GMT
Maybe it is simply that in the words of our local supertramp poet ‘we have no time to stand and stare’. The whole idea of a monastery being a place of contemplation, and the occupants therein being described as ‘contemplatives’ for example. Both my daughters insist they are to some degree psychic. It is a little unnerving for a bloke with two scientific degrees and a firm conviction that when i die i rot. It is indeed very hard to reconcile science with the spiritual. If you are very scientific then when you die you rot makes sense. After all, proof is in the fact that bodies rot when living things expire. The big thing humans can't fathom (and so have created ideas about) is whether or not consciousness can survive physical death. When I was five and had a near death experience, I learned that something else is going on besides what we are taught is going on, or going to go on. I learned that there was no God, no Jesus and no Heaven and Hell as is portrayed in religion. This doesn't go down well with most people who get angry when anyone seems to be "atheist". I'm not an atheist but I also do not believe all the sheer bunkum that has been brought to bear on our hapless species by people who have found a great way to explain things with a twist that invariably enriches a few, controls many and keeps people terrified, and at war with one another over things that don't need mass murder and huge destruction to resolve. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 18, 2023 15:37:04 GMT
Ah well yes i’ve clinically died three times. It’s dark and black and boring although i’d swear the first time i was brought back ibwas lying between the ambulance axles. No looking down from a serenely peaceful vantage point for me.
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Post by Orac on Dec 18, 2023 15:48:41 GMT
I'm a Nordic pagan shaman. The realm or dimension of the "spirits" is a given among this kind, but each shaman is different in how they experience what is beyond the ordinary experience of our reality (or dimension). Dreams are where I will engage or see the things you are talking about. I know the beautiful realms, the peaceful, stunningly beautiful realm. But there are others that are badass. They contain the same malice we find in our Earthly dimension. The same terrible characters, evil intentions, and frightening landscapes. To visit these is harrowing. To visit the beautiful one/s is a gift. To leave is to have to cross some sort of barrier. You must cross it or you risk remaining behind. You aren't supposed o be there, after all. When you die you go through the natural progress. To visit is to see without belonging. As for these "spirits" visiting us, I think many are afraid of them. Modern life has more or less banished them because we are constantly in the presence of noise, voices, music and people on TV or the internet and there are many living beings all around us. But if you are isolated, the spirits of place become more apparent. William Wordsworth mentioned this in one of his poems and said "There is a spirit in the woods". I agree with him. That spirit is why some hate the countryside. They are afraid to confront it or engage with it. It presses in on them and they fear it for some reason. It is the thing that scares the average metrosexual. They want to be back where things are familiar and controllable. Where they are more significant and secure. (This is a great threat, Orac. Please continue with it. I am willing to participate. Maybe even Red will enjoy it if he can have a comforting glass of his own favourite spirits by his side.) Vanna, Christmas preparations got in the way - and then i had to consider my reply  This is a tricky thing for me. I come from a technical background and so i have to make the language up myself. I also have reservations about the language used in this whole area - i just can't be certain that when someone says something they are pointing to the same object i think they are pointing to. It sounds to me like you and I are pointing to the same thing - and by thing, i don't mean a colour or a kettle or a set of curtains.trying to get to the heart of the matter succinctly - The 'thing' i am pointing to is the 'atmosphere' that gives an action meaning and so makes an action make sense or (conversely) turns it into gibberish. A person has a spirit - ie they have a distinct atmosphere that makes an action make sense. I think it is possible to detect this in yourself through self observation - it's not stationary / static though. On one day an action makes perfect sense (for you) and on another the very same action not so much. Who of us has not had a brain-lock in which logic appears to be insisting one action makes sense, but something else (atmosphere?) is insisting on something else entirely? The reason i used dreams to describe this is twofold. Firstly, because dreams (it seems to me) can have this atmosphere thing. The barmy worlds of our dreams come with their altered logic and consequential meanings embedded in an atmosphere. We know about the logic of a dream world (while we are dreaming), not because it is spelled out in the dream, but because we feel these absurd rules as an atmospheric mental object. Secondly, also because i started to become aware of this notion due to the lingering atmosphere of dreams. "I know I am awake and i logically know i am not in the dream world now, but still feel the weight of its un-spokren/ unwritten rules in my mind". This period might last (say) half an hour after i awake (occasionally). I then deduced that, if this atmospheric sensation continued (say) for days, i would likely become somewhat debilitated by the conflict between my feeling and logic - i would have to fight continuously to translate to the real world and produce a meaningful response to it. It would not be much of a problem at first, but if this persisted for days and days, it would become a struggle. - i would perhaps be 'insane'.I then concluded that just as there was an atmospheric object attached to a dream, there was also an atmospheric object whose familiarity told me i was now awake and in reality. Waking up fully (it seemed to me) might be the exchange of one atmosphere for another. Anyhow - here is something odd. All the above was in my head-space when i was considering a reply to you, but i thought 'it's not enough to be worthy as a reply. I should wait until something else occurs to me to add'. I was clicking about in youtube and weirdly enough the mighty algorithm fed me this - These people are talking about the same (more or less) concept - This is the first time i have seen any YouTube video talking about this. Tell me there is no fate that binds us all or no meaning and i will tell you have dropped out of reality itself.  |
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Post by Vanna on Dec 19, 2023 13:55:18 GMT
Ye gods, Orac! First I'll just say I am not sure what you mean by "atmospheres" so I will just say what I mean by them. I mean that spirit of place is the atmosphere somewhere creates and perhaps "persona" is the atmosphere an individual creates. More than one persona can create an "atmosphere", as we all know. Dimensions are, or would be, actual places not imaginary places. They would be populated by beings or what some call "spirits" that reside there. They would be real spaces in which things happened in accordance with the principles of physics, the way things happen in our own dimension. Our dimension encompasses the entire cosmos as it exists inside and not outside of our ability to see it and traverse it either in person or by robotic means. Stuff gets burned up in it, sucked up by it, spat out by it and crashed into by the many things in it. It is real. Reality may differ slightly in various planetary or cosmic spaces but they will be in the wrapper of the dimension we exist in. To exit this dimension would be to leave it and to leave it would be to die from it and not be able to return. Otherwise there would be "spirits" wandering all over the place as there are in those lunatic ghost programmes the TV channels seem to be full of. All bollocks. But possibly pretty lucrative in our presently crazy age. The world is full of utterly deranged humans at present and this seems to have been exacerbated by hallucinogenic drugs and social media. As well as the remnants of previous superstitiously oriented mindsets of religious belief. This appears to have created a plethora of oddballs that is increasing and will result in chaos if something isn't done about it. Now to your interesting link to the phenomenon of Tik-Tok fans who appear to have concocted some system of dimension hopping that is related to places they can imagine and "shift" to. (Have to say a word about the two women who were interviewed. Lovely, sane creatures that restore one's faith in humanity.) What seems to be happening is yet another dreadful case of mass psychosis. We had one in the 1970s when getting thin caused so much misery as anorexia took hold and girls starved themselves in droves. Now Generation Z appears to be lending itself to escape. They are fleeing reality to the fantasy worlds of fiction, where they believe they can live, in some cases forever. It is very worrying. Broccoli brains have possibly begun to implode. I once believed the internet was a wonderful invention that would unite people across the globe, create understanding and help solve problems, create communities of like minded individuals and promote education and knowledge. ... So much for that.  |
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This is a tricky thing for me. I come from a technical background and so i have to make the language up myself. I also have reservations about the language used in this whole area - i just can't be certain that when someone says something they are pointing to the same object i think they are pointing to. It sounds to me like you and I are pointing to the same thing - and by thing, i don't mean a colour or a kettle or a set of curtains.
