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Post by BvL on Dec 12, 2023 1:49:31 GMT
My mass media social media of choice is Youtube, so I'm talking mostly on what I see in the comments by the general public on this website. Youtube is supposed to be the second most popular internet address on the whole of the web, so a good platform to get a pretty balanced cross section of people. Not only that but you tend to get groups associated with say reading a particular paper or TV channel programme.
I've been reading a lot of comments on political topics under broadcasters like Channel 4, Sky News, Times Radio, Sun, Evening Standard, Independent and so on. I try on purpose to get a broad section of popular media consumer's views when they bring up political debates. I also do the same with American channels, Indian, Chinese, Australian, German, French and the like. Anyway, to keep to the point, I'm talking mostly about the British viewers here and how they comment on topics say like the big one at the moment is the stopping the boats. It is invariably a news clip of the government and the government fixing a problem by proposing their solution, just as we see in this new bill as the latest example. It does not matter what it is, like the Brexit one was just the same and so too are all the other problems the government faces and the people comment on.
I'm not saying whether people's views are wrong or right here, just the type of comment disturbs me. If we start at the top of the list we see this more pronounced. You get a lot of slogans, you get a lot of hateful comments on the government, including much sarcasm and other humour by way of witty putdown, e.g. something moronic and general like "Not fit for the dustbin". The comments are general so they can be copy and pasted under any clip talking about the party they hate. Also try and group these comments into categories, like hateful attack, praise for the video and creator of video, the "Your channel is the best channel I've seen on here, amazing..." and then you get comments that are additional information to add to the presentation of the video, you get comments like recalling personal experiences e.g. "When I was last at the NHS I had to wait 10 hours to be seen", but rarely does one see solutions in the comments. For all those masses of comments hating the government and their solution, where are your solutions??? Sure you get the , "well I'm not going to vote for that party ever again", but still no clue given as to what they might do in the hot seat. Surely it is wrong to criticise someone taking a decision when you don't have a better idea.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 12, 2023 14:53:01 GMT
My mass media social media of choice is Youtube, so I'm talking mostly on what I see in the comments by the general public on this website. Youtube is supposed to be the second most popular internet address on the whole of the web, so a good platform to get a pretty balanced cross section of people. Not only that but you tend to get groups associated with say reading a particular paper or TV channel programme. I've been reading a lot of comments on political topics under broadcasters like Channel 4, Sky News, Times Radio, Sun, Evening Standard, Independent and so on. I try on purpose to get a broad section of popular media consumer's views when they bring up political debates. I also do the same with American channels, Indian, Chinese, Australian, German, French and the like. Anyway, to keep to the point, I'm talking mostly about the British viewers here and how they comment on topics say like the big one at the moment is the stopping the boats. It is invariably a news clip of the government and the government fixing a problem by proposing their solution, just as we see in this new bill as the latest example. It does not matter what it is, like the Brexit one was just the same and so too are all the other problems the government faces and the people comment on. I'm not saying whether people's views are wrong or right here, just the type of comment disturbs me. If we start at the top of the list we see this more pronounced. You get a lot of slogans, you get a lot of hateful comments on the government, including much sarcasm and other humour by way of witty putdown, e.g. something moronic and general like "Not fit for the dustbin". The comments are general so they can be copy and pasted under any clip talking about the party they hate. Also try and group these comments into categories, like hateful attack, praise for the video and creator of video, the "Your channel is the best channel I've seen on here, amazing..." and then you get comments that are additional information to add to the presentation of the video, you get comments like recalling personal experiences e.g. "When I was last at the NHS I had to wait 10 hours to be seen", but rarely does one see solutions in the comments. For all those masses of comments hating the government and their solution, where are your solutions??? Sure you get the , "well I'm not going to vote for that party ever again", but still no clue given as to what they might do in the hot seat. Surely it is wrong to criticise someone taking a decision when you don't have a better idea. I have loads of better ideas. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 16:50:44 GMT
My mass media social media of choice is Youtube, so I'm talking mostly on what I see in the comments by the general public on this website. Youtube is supposed to be the second most popular internet address on the whole of the web, so a good platform to get a pretty balanced cross section of people. Not only that but you tend to get groups associated with say reading a particular paper or TV channel programme. I've been reading a lot of comments on political topics under broadcasters like Channel 4, Sky News, Times Radio, Sun, Evening Standard, Independent and so on. I try on purpose to get a broad section of popular media consumer's views when they bring up political debates. I also do the same with American channels, Indian, Chinese, Australian, German, French and the like. Anyway, to keep to the point, I'm talking mostly about the British viewers here and how they comment on topics say like the big one at the moment is the stopping the boats. It is invariably a news clip of the government and the government fixing a problem by proposing their solution, just as we see in this new bill as the latest example. It does not matter what it is, like the Brexit one was just the same and so too are all the other problems the government faces and the people comment on. I'm not saying whether people's views are wrong or right here, just the type of comment disturbs me. If we start at the top of the list we see this more pronounced. You get a lot of slogans, you get a lot of hateful comments on the government, including much sarcasm and other humour by way of witty putdown, e.g. something moronic and general like "Not fit for the dustbin". The comments are general so they can be copy and pasted under any clip talking about the party they hate. Also try and group these comments into categories, like hateful attack, praise for the video and creator of video, the "Your channel is the best channel I've seen on here, amazing..." and then you get comments that are additional information to add to the presentation of the video, you get comments like recalling personal experiences e.g. "When I was last at the NHS I had to wait 10 hours to be seen", but rarely does one see solutions in the comments. For all those masses of comments hating the government and their solution, where are your solutions??? Sure you get the , "well I'm not going to vote for that party ever again", but still no clue given as to what they might do in the hot seat. Surely it is wrong to criticise someone taking a decision when you don't have a better idea. I have loads of better ideas. When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 12, 2023 18:50:12 GMT
I have loads of better ideas. When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. Yes it does seem to be like you say there. I have experimented the other way around and seen what comments are liked more than others. Unfortunately the popular ones are some reason to hate or dislike something that is not liked anyway. The clever wit seems to rate quite highly, which tends to suggest a lot of people read this kind of stuff for entertainment reasons. The well-balanced and rigorously reasonable argument that tries to take a disinterested approach, e.g. an economic argument should always be without interest bias, seems to rank lowest of all. I tend to think I have really achieved something if even one person liked the comment in these cases.
You could make the general arguments above regarding the way it works, but something I have noticed is these things are not the same across countries. I'd say we rank about one of the worst, the US is noticeably better than we are in that you do get quite a few who you can have an intelligent debate with. I've also had chats on Indian and that region, and I think they do better than the Americans surprisingly. You get a fair few smart people in India. I chat to Germans too, which really go for the balanced rational approach so get a good score over in Germany. Right at the opposite end of the spectrum though is China. A well reasoned unbiased argument that draws on good references and looks more like an academic text will get every Chinaman liking it. It really is freaky in fact just how many likes my posts get in China. I've found the more expert the comment, the better it goes down. I get the feeling the culture is one of learn and value the wisdom of the master, but you don't look too masterful in China if you go around attacking prominent people with throw away comments.
It's like the complete opposite of the UK. There is an odd exception here though and that is the readership of the Financial Times. That old saying "No FT No Comment" really is true, even today, the FT readers are very well educated and I often learn a great deal from them, often far more than the actual article, which can be sloppy in places. So I think what I pick up from these surveys is mostly what I already knew, except I was pleasantly surprised at how places like India and even Africa are getting far more sophisticated than they were maybe ten years back. There is the smell of progress. Our country languishes at the bottom. I can't think of a more stupid country if the average be taken. Indeed this is very concerning. Something really bad is going on in the heads of the masses in the UK which does not seem such a problem almost anywhere else. Well of course some are so backward they don't even have internet, but really I'm talking about the main trading partners of the world. It feels like the UK is being consumed by chaos. Chaos can go anywhere. Nothing ties it down, like random weather patterns. What a way to run a country.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 19:01:47 GMT
When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. Yes it does seem to be like you say there. I have experimented the other way around and seen what comments are liked more than others. Unfortunately the popular ones are some reason to hate or dislike something that is not liked anyway. The clever wit seems to rate quite highly, which tends to suggest a lot of people read this kind of stuff for entertainment reasons. The well-balanced and rigorously reasonable argument that tries to take a disinterested approach, e.g. an economic argument should always be without interest bias, seems to rank lowest of all. I tend to think I have really achieved something if even one person liked the comment in these cases.
You could make the general arguments above regarding the way it works, but something I have noticed is these things are not the same across countries. I'd say we rank about one of the worst, the US is noticeably better than we are in that you do get quite a few who you can have an intelligent debate with. I've also had chats on Indian and that region, and I think they do better than the Americans surprisingly. You get a fair few smart people in India. I chat to Germans too, which really go for the balanced rational approach so get a good score over in Germany. Right at the opposite end of the spectrum though is China. A well reasoned unbiased argument that draws on good references and looks more like an academic text will get every Chinaman liking it. It really is freaky in fact just how many likes my posts get in China. I've found the more expert the comment, the better it goes down. I get the feeling the culture is one of learn and value the wisdom of the master, but you don't look too masterful in China if you go around attacking prominent people with throw away comments.
It's like the complete opposite of the UK. There is an odd exception here though and that is the readership of the Financial Times. That old saying "No FT No Comment" really is true, even today, the FT readers are very well educated and I often learn a great deal from them, often far more than the actual article, which can be sloppy in places. So I think what I pick up from these surveys is mostly what I already knew, except I was pleasantly surprised at how places like India and even Africa are getting far more sophisticated than they were maybe ten years back. There is the smell of progress. Our country languishes at the bottom. I can't think of a more stupid country if the average be taken. Indeed this is very concerning. Something really bad is going on in the heads of the masses in the UK which does not seem such a problem almost anywhere else. Well of course some are so backward they don't even have internet, but really I'm talking about the main trading partners of the world. It feels like the UK is being consumed by chaos. Chaos can go anywhere. Nothing ties it down, like random weather patterns. What a way to run a country.
Essentially, to be concise about it, any democracy is likely to be in trouble if most of its voters are stupid. Though the evidence of recent years does tend to suggest that this problem is at least as bad in America as it is here. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 12, 2023 19:35:13 GMT
Yes it does seem to be like you say there. I have experimented the other way around and seen what comments are liked more than others. Unfortunately the popular ones are some reason to hate or dislike something that is not liked anyway. The clever wit seems to rate quite highly, which tends to suggest a lot of people read this kind of stuff for entertainment reasons. The well-balanced and rigorously reasonable argument that tries to take a disinterested approach, e.g. an economic argument should always be without interest bias, seems to rank lowest of all. I tend to think I have really achieved something if even one person liked the comment in these cases.
You could make the general arguments above regarding the way it works, but something I have noticed is these things are not the same across countries. I'd say we rank about one of the worst, the US is noticeably better than we are in that you do get quite a few who you can have an intelligent debate with. I've also had chats on Indian and that region, and I think they do better than the Americans surprisingly. You get a fair few smart people in India. I chat to Germans too, which really go for the balanced rational approach so get a good score over in Germany. Right at the opposite end of the spectrum though is China. A well reasoned unbiased argument that draws on good references and looks more like an academic text will get every Chinaman liking it. It really is freaky in fact just how many likes my posts get in China. I've found the more expert the comment, the better it goes down. I get the feeling the culture is one of learn and value the wisdom of the master, but you don't look too masterful in China if you go around attacking prominent people with throw away comments.
It's like the complete opposite of the UK. There is an odd exception here though and that is the readership of the Financial Times. That old saying "No FT No Comment" really is true, even today, the FT readers are very well educated and I often learn a great deal from them, often far more than the actual article, which can be sloppy in places. So I think what I pick up from these surveys is mostly what I already knew, except I was pleasantly surprised at how places like India and even Africa are getting far more sophisticated than they were maybe ten years back. There is the smell of progress. Our country languishes at the bottom. I can't think of a more stupid country if the average be taken. Indeed this is very concerning. Something really bad is going on in the heads of the masses in the UK which does not seem such a problem almost anywhere else. Well of course some are so backward they don't even have internet, but really I'm talking about the main trading partners of the world. It feels like the UK is being consumed by chaos. Chaos can go anywhere. Nothing ties it down, like random weather patterns. What a way to run a country.
Essentially, to be concise about it, any democracy is likely to be in trouble if most of its voters are stupid. Though the evidence of recent years does tend to suggest that this problem is at least as bad in America as it is here. It's not too far off the UK, but my experience is America has more level-headed types. It might be because America is more technically advanced, so those are the ones in difficult jobs and jobs like engineering which require a rational mind. As the UK lost its industrial base it has gone into new industries, like Manchester is now a "media city", and although doing well financially, you perhaps don't get the same level of rationality compared to when it was a major manufacturing area, the Shenzhen of 200 years ago I suppose.
It has to be said the US has crazier nuts than the UK, so perhaps when we average it we get worse over all. In many ways it seems to be heading along the same path and many Americans say this too. You get some really repulsive violence from American. It's not just the politicians but the people. When a politician puts forward violent solutions their popularity goes up. We had better not get like that. My worry is ignorance is driving more ignorance in a vicious circle right now.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 14, 2023 8:54:14 GMT
I have loads of better ideas. When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. What would be the point of stating a better idea ? No one in power will see it and think ‘eureka lets do that instead’ No one will vote for you instead of the wankers you are criticising. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 9:55:11 GMT
When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. What would be the point of stating a better idea ? No one in power will see it and think ‘eureka lets do that instead’ No one will vote for you instead of the wankers you are criticising. We can only ever hope that a better idea will gain traction somehow. But I doubt that any of us on this forum has any influence at all in helping to make that happen. The powers that be - all of them and not just the ones currently in power - value an idea only if it is simple and emotive enough to appeal to a large chunk of the lumpen masses. It is the support of the sheeple as ballot fodder rather than actually achieving something concrete which is the goal. This Rwanda policy ideally fits that. It hasnt worked yet and even if it does the numbers intended to be sent there are small and at huge cost. But that is not the point. It is the appeal of the idea to the sheeple that is the point, not its effectiveness. All the sheeple need to be satisfied is to see a few black or brown faces actually getting on a government chartered plane bound for Rwanda. As an appeal to the people it will then be job done. Labour is no better. They say they have a plan all the time but when asked to explain what it is, they offer virtually nothing but a promise to end non dom tax status. It will raise a bit of money but nowhere near enough to pay for everything they say it will. But again the actual effectiveness of the idea in terms of its workings is not the point. It is the simplistic emotive appeal to the sheeple of the idea of making rich foreigners living here pay their taxes, with the added appeal of insinuating that the Prime Minister's wife is one of those rich foreign tax dodgers, hoping to further damage any appeal to the sheeple his side might have. In other words, both main parties are far more focussed upon the appeal of ideas to the lumpen masses, than they are with the actual effectiveness of the ideas themselves. What looks good to the sheeple is more important than what actually works. And this probably goes some way towards explaining why this country is so badly run, and why nothing works anymore. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 14, 2023 10:11:32 GMT
When Blair started his IR35 and Fast Tracked Visa BS i was on the consultative council of the freelancer trade body as it was then called the Professional Contractors Group We had contacts with lobbyists snd others at all levels of political slime and from them gleaned an insight into how Bernie Ecclestone invested a million pounds he knew he would eventually get back into securing an extension to F1 tobacco sponsorship. amp.theguardian.com/politics/2008/oct/12/tonyblair-labourTo be clear, persons known to me in 1999 were fully aware a large political donation had been made to secure an intervention exempting F1 from a tobacco sponsorship ban AND i was told it had to have been known by the provider of the funds that EVENTUALLY the impropriety would be uncovered and the funds would have to be returned to the donor. Given the size if our organisation and the amounts invoiced weekly by our top earning 1000 members we quite seriously debated following Bernie’s example and digging into our company wallets to make a donation of a similar size to make IR35 go away. It would have been a mere three days of invoicing for me. Of course, less entrepreneurial voices won the day and a sum approaching that was wasted on lawyers instead. Ecclestone of course got his exemption secured funding many, many times over his investment and eventually got the entire investment returned to him, smearing the labour party in axle grease as he did so. One should not blame Ecclestone in this matter. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 26, 2023 21:04:27 GMT
When the government, not just this government but any government, comes up with solutions or alleged solutions to a perceived problem, most people can easily figure out why they agree or disagree with it. But few go so far as to suggest what they think are better ideas. When it comes to something they dont like as a solution for whatever reason, they tend to rely on some other bunch of politicians to come up with a better solution rather than thinking one up on their own. If they do come up with their own solutions they are often overly simplistic and half baked. The type of people who might come up with well thought out alternative solutions of their own will mostly tend to come from the more politically interested and knowledgeable minority, the kind of people who would seek out and join a forum like this. Such people exist out there but they are swamped on social media by the more typical ones you describe. Another problem with social media is that it has a tendency to act as an echo chamber, feeding you news, information, and material you are likely to agree with rather than something that might challenge your views. It is massive confirmation bias, where all the information thrown at us tends to be stuff calculated to back up what we already think. Which is the ideal conditions for fragmenting the population into separate reality bubbles, where one groups assumed reality is very different to anothers. The days when most of us broadly agreed on the facts but merely disagreed on the solutions are gradually being overturned by a growing tendency for different groups to believe in different facts. And with the scope for bad actors out there - eg hostile states like Russia - to use social media to spread fake facts designed to undermine democracies and influence electoral outcomes in their favour, we are clearly into new territory when it comes to the management of information. What would be the point of stating a better idea ? No one in power will see it and think ‘eureka lets do that instead’ No one will vote for you instead of the wankers you are criticising. This is the person who does make the decisions and have the good ideas, at least in the NHS Hi Mr NHS manager, I moved a cupboard in a mental department once and was excited when I did it, and it created efficient use of space by destroying it. Can I have the job - lol. Before that I consulted my local holist who was charming a snake at the time in the high street. He say it is the right phase of the moon to move into your job. |
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