|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 28, 2023 15:14:06 GMT
The stupid charge comes from his own men amongst others. He had no appreciation for the fine arts and the like. I can't see him really as any different from quite a few Tory MPs today who inherited the position from hundreds of years of their ancestors ruling. You are forgetting the politics of the age, there were factions and he was not an absolute ruler though close. Kings had affairs and this led to factions trying to gain influence and power if not for themselves for the son or nephew and so by knocking the reputation of the leader this promoted the other faction. This was why in the ancient world after taking power often other rivals were often killed. He was taught by Aristotle and knew that armies could build an empire only trade could hold it together and he took scientists and botanists on campaign with him. Where he may have shown a lack of intelligence was in leading from the front and getting injuries though arguably his actions motivated the others to greater heights. When he had his disaster crossing the Gedrosian desert in modern Pakistan and Iran, he was trying to find a Southerly route back to Baghdad. He had hired guides and also had the navy to supply him from the coast yet due to mountains they lost contact. Then his guides revealed he had gone beyond their known territory. They made it with great loss of life. Returning to Baghad he started making plans to explore Arabia yet was poisoned by factions still loyal to the Asians at 32yrs old. He founded cities with Alexendria being the most famous. I'm not really forgetting anything except for the source of the quote which described him. The quote was a contemporary account, as in source material, not interpretations by those who live at the current time. Really you don't have to know anything about someone's qualifications to know that person is stupid if you are working with then and know them. The elite have their people to dress them up as grand, and yes he would have had all sorts in his employment. We see very much the same thing played out today. Look at Cleverly as a prime example of an idiot, despite private education. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Nov 28, 2023 15:27:42 GMT
You are forgetting the politics of the age, there were factions and he was not an absolute ruler though close. Kings had affairs and this led to factions trying to gain influence and power if not for themselves for the son or nephew and so by knocking the reputation of the leader this promoted the other faction. This was why in the ancient world after taking power often other rivals were often killed. He was taught by Aristotle and knew that armies could build an empire only trade could hold it together and he took scientists and botanists on campaign with him. Where he may have shown a lack of intelligence was in leading from the front and getting injuries though arguably his actions motivated the others to greater heights. When he had his disaster crossing the Gedrosian desert in modern Pakistan and Iran, he was trying to find a Southerly route back to Baghdad. He had hired guides and also had the navy to supply him from the coast yet due to mountains they lost contact. Then his guides revealed he had gone beyond their known territory. They made it with great loss of life. Returning to Baghad he started making plans to explore Arabia yet was poisoned by factions still loyal to the Asians at 32yrs old. He founded cities with Alexendria being the most famous. I'm not really forgetting anything except for the source of the quote which described him. The quote was a contemporary account, as in source material, not interpretations by those who live at the current time. Really you don't have to know anything about someone's qualifications to know that person is stupid if you are working with then and know them. The elite have their people to dress them up as grand, and yes he would have had all sorts in his employment. We see very much the same thing played out today. Look at Cleverly as a prime example of an idiot, despite private education. Again you are forgetting the wider political scene in Greece, Athens had been globalist leader of the Greek world until tangling with the alliance under Sparta. Sparta won by using Persian money to destroy the Athenian by paying rowers better money. Macedonia then rose to become the dominant power though Athens had great orators that attacked the Macedonians as barbarians, one such was Demosthenes who thought the Thebans would beat the Macedonians. They did not and after the second revolt their City was destroyed and their people sold to slavery the only building left standing was that of the poet Pindar. Then the Athenians begged for peace Demosthenes was 'muzzled.' Athens never rose again though undoubtedly their bias came through when it fell under Rome. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 28, 2023 15:31:34 GMT
I'm not really forgetting anything except for the source of the quote which described him. The quote was a contemporary account, as in source material, not interpretations by those who live at the current time. Really you don't have to know anything about someone's qualifications to know that person is stupid if you are working with then and know them. The elite have their people to dress them up as grand, and yes he would have had all sorts in his employment. We see very much the same thing played out today. Look at Cleverly as a prime example of an idiot, despite private education. Again you are forgetting the wider political scene in Greece, Athens had been globalist leader of the Greek world until tangling with the alliance under Sparta. Sparta won by using Persian money to destroy the Athenian by paying rowers better money. Macedonia then rose to become the dominant power though Athens had great orators that attacked the Macedonians as barbarians, one such was Demosthenes who thought the Thebans would beat the Macedonians. They did not and after the second revolt their City was destroyed and their people sold to slavery the only building left standing was that of the poet Pindar. Then the Athenians begged for peace Demosthenes was 'muzzled.' Athens never rose again though undoubtedly their bias came through when it fell under Rome. Hang on, I think we may have crossed wired here. I'm talking about Lord Elgin. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Nov 28, 2023 15:32:43 GMT
What did imperial China bring to the world, well for me:
Bone China, silks, fireworks though they never developed the weapons and so fell under the might of the West.
Martial arts, like I did Tai Chi and developed energetic symptoms in my palms, scientists now think it is infra-red energy.
One day I want to look into Feng Shui and like you correctly once said that good anatomy structure has a good energy flow I believe the placement of buildings will too.
|
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Nov 28, 2023 15:56:49 GMT
Lord Elgin was the 8th Earl and born James Bruce, I say this as other Lord Elgins were known and one in connection with the Elgin Marbles.
Undoubtedly western countries and their representative undermined Chinese rulers just by their presence and military know how.
China was too big to conquer, the best the West could do would be to control ports through force and then buy what they wanted and if needed control the industry.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 28, 2023 17:54:21 GMT
Lord Elgin was the 8th Earl and born James Bruce, I say this as other Lord Elgins were known and one in connection with the Elgin Marbles. Undoubtedly western countries and their representative undermined Chinese rulers just by their presence and military know how. China was too big to conquer, the best the West could do would be to control ports through force and then buy what they wanted and if needed control the industry. I used to have a book written by an ex-MI6 guy who extensively researched the history of the British East India Company, checking out records held in the East India Office of that time. He said in great summary of the scheme of things that it was all rolling along fine, managing to trash any resistance in its path until it met China. I think he said out of the three wars, one was lost, one was won and one was drawn, but essentially because they got a right run for the money and took a bit of a beating they were wary of China, and in the end there was a kind of grudging diplomatic settlement.
By the way, have you ever come across Kowloon in Hong Kong? It was once a British army base, but ended up as a small area of land which literally had no law associated with it. It was a 100% anarchist community. It's one of the stranger things that arose from Chinese-British situations of the time. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Nov 29, 2023 14:22:00 GMT
Lord Elgin was the 8th Earl and born James Bruce, I say this as other Lord Elgins were known and one in connection with the Elgin Marbles. Undoubtedly western countries and their representative undermined Chinese rulers just by their presence and military know how. China was too big to conquer, the best the West could do would be to control ports through force and then buy what they wanted and if needed control the industry. I used to have a book written by an ex-MI6 guy who extensively researched the history of the British East India Company, checking out records held in the East India Office of that time. He said in great summary of the scheme of things that it was all rolling along fine, managing to trash any resistance in its path until it met China. I think he said out of the three wars, one was lost, one was won and one was drawn, but essentially because they got a right run for the money and took a bit of a beating they were wary of China, and in the end there was a kind of grudging diplomatic settlement.
By the way, have you ever come across Kowloon in Hong Kong? It was once a British army base, but ended up as a small area of land which literally had no law associated with it. It was a 100% anarchist community. It's one of the stranger things that arose from Chinese-British situations of the time. Can't say that I have heard of Kowloon yet on China think as an empire rather than say the Mughal states of India was better placed to resist. Of course we were not the only Western power to try and exert influence. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 29, 2023 15:26:51 GMT
I used to have a book written by an ex-MI6 guy who extensively researched the history of the British East India Company, checking out records held in the East India Office of that time. He said in great summary of the scheme of things that it was all rolling along fine, managing to trash any resistance in its path until it met China. I think he said out of the three wars, one was lost, one was won and one was drawn, but essentially because they got a right run for the money and took a bit of a beating they were wary of China, and in the end there was a kind of grudging diplomatic settlement.
By the way, have you ever come across Kowloon in Hong Kong? It was once a British army base, but ended up as a small area of land which literally had no law associated with it. It was a 100% anarchist community. It's one of the stranger things that arose from Chinese-British situations of the time. Can't say that I have heard of Kowloon yet on China think as an empire rather than say the Mughal states of India was better placed to resist. Of course we were not the only Western power to try and exert influence. China grew to the size it is by being invaded. The invaders would turn up and settle alongside China, where their two cultures and bodies of knowledge were shared, hence making the state more and more advanced and hence powerful. The mixing of diverse genes tends to strengthen the intelligence of the race. The Brits were smart for the same reason - always getting invaded. Unlike the Brits though, China was not into invading foreign lands itself. It did not have to as they came to it! Chinese diplomacy is a high art. They had their foreign missionaries, but instead of threats they offered gifts to foreign leaders. They say, here, have this magnificent Chinese vase we have brought all this way for you. It's the art of buttering them up. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Nov 29, 2023 18:03:04 GMT
The Qing began as Warlords with Mongol support challenging the Mings.
Under the Mings in Northern China you had droughts caused by the Little Ice Age.
Also the Portuguese brought Silver and used this to buy silks to trade with Japan, Spain later did this too and also the Dutch were involved. This influx of silver caused financial problems in Chinese markets.
Also during the Mings, Chinese explorers went as far West as Arabia.
I suspect during the Ming dynasty some Chinese went to Malaya and Singapore.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 29, 2023 19:11:26 GMT
The Qing began as Warlords with Mongol support challenging the Mings. Under the Mings in Northern China you had droughts caused by the Little Ice Age. Also the Portuguese brought Silver and used this to buy silks to trade with Japan, Spain later did this too and also the Dutch were involved. This influx of silver caused financial problems in Chinese markets. Also during the Mings, Chinese explorers went as far West as Arabia. I suspect during the Ming dynasty some Chinese went to Malaya and Singapore. Yes well that neatly fits in with the quotes in the OP where the chap was saying the Qing period was a period of stagnation. Warlords tend to be pretty stupid. We have them today in our government who are from long dynasties of military affiliation. Now in China it is the age of the Hans to get back into doing what they do best, i.e. inventing stuff. Looking back on events, Mao had a right handful keeping the revolution from degenerating back into the control of those who held power before, who were so exploitative. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Dec 3, 2023 12:31:21 GMT
The Qing began as Warlords with Mongol support challenging the Mings. Under the Mings in Northern China you had droughts caused by the Little Ice Age. Also the Portuguese brought Silver and used this to buy silks to trade with Japan, Spain later did this too and also the Dutch were involved. This influx of silver caused financial problems in Chinese markets. Also during the Mings, Chinese explorers went as far West as Arabia. I suspect during the Ming dynasty some Chinese went to Malaya and Singapore. Yes well that neatly fits in with the quotes in the OP where the chap was saying the Qing period was a period of stagnation. Warlords tend to be pretty stupid. We have them today in our government who are from long dynasties of military affiliation. Now in China it is the age of the Hans to get back into doing what they do best, i.e. inventing stuff. Looking back on events, Mao had a right handful keeping the revolution from degenerating back into the control of those who held power before, who were so exploitative. They would not have progressed so fast without early help from the Soviets and later from the West when Western corporations saw profit margins from the potential market size. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 3, 2023 15:56:07 GMT
Yes well that neatly fits in with the quotes in the OP where the chap was saying the Qing period was a period of stagnation. Warlords tend to be pretty stupid. We have them today in our government who are from long dynasties of military affiliation. Now in China it is the age of the Hans to get back into doing what they do best, i.e. inventing stuff. Looking back on events, Mao had a right handful keeping the revolution from degenerating back into the control of those who held power before, who were so exploitative. They would not have progressed so fast without early help from the Soviets and later from the West when Western corporations saw profit margins from the potential market size. Later on the soviets smashed up all the machines they had built and burnt the blueprints. There was a political problem where the new leader Khrushchev was someone Mao claimed was a traitor to the communist cause, accusing him of being a puppet of the West. This was just one more problem they had that led to the great famine. As for the claim of Western help later on, well didn't we all have Western help. Do we not all learn from the technology that has gone before us? They had to catch up with Western technology before overtaking it, which is somewhat harder than just maintaining your lead. Besides the West were not into helping them create their own technology. They wanted China as a cheap manufacturing base to exploit cheap labour and poor working conditions, which they would then hypocritically lay as a charge against China and why one should seek to oppose its rise. What they were not so keen to point out was that Chinese immigrants to the US were behind a lot of recent technology advances. You often see Chinese names on Stanford and MIT science papers. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Dec 4, 2023 12:31:09 GMT
They would not have progressed so fast without early help from the Soviets and later from the West when Western corporations saw profit margins from the potential market size. Later on the soviets smashed up all the machines they had built and burnt the blueprints. There was a political problem where the new leader Khrushchev was someone Mao claimed was a traitor to the communist cause, accusing him of being a puppet of the West. This was just one more problem they had that led to the great famine. As for the claim of Western help later on, well didn't we all have Western help. Do we not all learn from the technology that has gone before us? They had to catch up with Western technology before overtaking it, which is somewhat harder than just maintaining your lead. Besides the West were not into helping them create their own technology. They wanted China as a cheap manufacturing base to exploit cheap labour and poor working conditions, which they would then hypocritically lay as a charge against China and why one should seek to oppose its rise. What they were not so keen to point out was that Chinese immigrants to the US were behind a lot of recent technology advances. You often see Chinese names on Stanford and MIT science papers. My aunt got a Maths Degree as a house wife bringing up two kids at O.U she worked for a University and was then asked to work for a professor who is cagey whenever we ask what he does yet it is in science and physics, she said 12 years ago the Chinese were a major problem in espionage and they had to be very careful. The Chinese were her already in the universities she thought some were spies. |
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Dec 4, 2023 12:50:13 GMT
Forgot to answer a part of that, there are periods when the Chinese have fallen out with the Russians, now is not one of them.
Recall that US spy plane that 'crashed' in China under Clinton.
I'm not knocking them nor anti-China just see them as a rival (also potential business partner) and a rival that has been very clever in advancing their cause.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 4, 2023 14:03:43 GMT
Later on the soviets smashed up all the machines they had built and burnt the blueprints. There was a political problem where the new leader Khrushchev was someone Mao claimed was a traitor to the communist cause, accusing him of being a puppet of the West. This was just one more problem they had that led to the great famine. As for the claim of Western help later on, well didn't we all have Western help. Do we not all learn from the technology that has gone before us? They had to catch up with Western technology before overtaking it, which is somewhat harder than just maintaining your lead. Besides the West were not into helping them create their own technology. They wanted China as a cheap manufacturing base to exploit cheap labour and poor working conditions, which they would then hypocritically lay as a charge against China and why one should seek to oppose its rise. What they were not so keen to point out was that Chinese immigrants to the US were behind a lot of recent technology advances. You often see Chinese names on Stanford and MIT science papers. My aunt got a Maths Degree as a house wife bringing up two kids at O.U she worked for a University and was then asked to work for a professor who is cagey whenever we ask what he does yet it is in science and physics, she said 12 years ago the Chinese were a major problem in espionage and they had to be very careful. The Chinese were her already in the universities she thought some were spies. Did you ever read the operator's manual of Vault 7? It was a CIA spyware system until Wikileaks published the entire technical manual. To cut a long story short, what it did was a huge amount of spying, but if anyone were very sophisticated they could have spotted the spying was linked to Chinese servers (e.g. using a packet sniffer). This was not a coincidence and your aunt has been fooled together with her professor employer. Honestly, there is so much shit talked about China that unless you talk to the Chinese regularly you will easily get fooled. I've debunked a million lies already and to be quite frank I get tired of it. Any discussion ends up with government trolls laying charges agaisnt them. People unwittingly aid the government by syndicating crap the press has produced. Not all is direct lying but unwittingly believing lies and then reproducing them.
Of course there have been cases where they have hacked stuff. There are 1.4 bn people in China and there are bound to be criminals amongst them, but get to know the people and you find the opposite of what you have been told. They are on the whole trustworthy, good natured and like to make friends. When the US accuses them of IP violations it is often things like a Chinese phone manufacturer might copy the shape of an Iphone simply because that is the shape which is trendy and popular, i.e. what the customer wants. They don't pass them off as Iphones, just the young girls see that as a fashion accessory. In China they traditionally don't have the same idea that IP is an owned thing, rather their culture favours sharing ideas. These things are deliberately misinterpreted by the MSM. |
|
