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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 11:54:12 GMT
One of the major components of yesterdays record net immigration figures was students.
Historically student arrivals and departures roughly balanced as new people arrived and other people who had completed their courses left.
The last two years though arriving numbers have spiked. It remains to be seen whether this surge will see a corresponding surge in departures in a year or two.
Question is - is this a good thing or a bad thing.
Let’s mKe the assumption that all arrivals are attending bona fide courses . I suspect few would argue with stopping fake courses and fake colleges if they exist.
We know that overseas students are fundamental to the finances of universities and private schools who would struggle to exist without them. Overseas students subsidize UK born kids education as well as adding other viewpoints and experience to the courses. Most will leave shortly after the end of their courses hopefully with a good viewpoint on their experience here which can only be good for UK “soft power” and future trade and political and social ties. The, historically very few, number who stay will mostly be graduates likely to make a positive impact on our society.
The students will spend their money here boosting our economy . They will however use some public services although due to their age that usage tends to be well below per capita average.
The numbers in the last two years however are very high and hard to comprehend. We have 60m people in the country which suggests a little under 800,000 eighteen year olds. Say 40% go to university suggesting around 320,000. If 300,000 overseas students are coming in each year, that would suggest that almost 50% of students are overseas. Can that really be right?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 12:48:56 GMT
Passing over the establishment propaganda and the pie-in-the-sky imaginings aspect of your post, I will concentrate for the moment on the numbers.
The place to look for accurate statistics is the Higher Education Statistics Authority (HESA).
As of 2022, for all universities in the UK the total number of students was 2.6 million of which around 580,000 (22%) were foreigners. What this masks however is the clustering of foreign students at elite institutions (Russell Group and others). At the top 40 universities, as ranked by the THE, almost 33% of students were foreigners; at some, such as Imperial, UCL and the LSE the proportion was very much higher.
The underlying question, seldom asked and never answered, is: Is it the function of Britain's universities to educate the children of foreigners, many of whom are potential future adversaries and commercial competitors? Is this a sensible strategy?
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 12:57:27 GMT
That was sort of the question I was asking Dan. I assume given overseas student numbers have spiked in the last two years, the proportion of overseas students in universities is currently increasing.
Question is is this a good thing a bad thing or neutral.
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Post by Orac on Nov 24, 2023 13:10:44 GMT
It may be leading question, but the obvious answer is 'no'. No sensible society would educate its adversaries to that degree. One aspect of this that intrigues me is what fraction of the attractiveness of these institutions is drawn from their location in the UK. If these institutions were to relocate, say to Somalia or Bombay, yet still offer the same service, would the same service attract the same price tag? |
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 13:21:16 GMT
There could be benefits to the UK of educating overseas students. They massively subsidize UK students. They spend money in the UK boosting our economy. Many will return home with an affiliation to the UK which can only have soft benefits to future trade, political , social links to the UK. What are the negatives in your view?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 13:49:56 GMT
Whether it's useful or not, increasing the number of foreign students at British universities is government policy - see the International Education Strategy: www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-education-strategy-2021-updateIt's all about increasing Education 'exports' in financial terms. The strategy called for the number to be increased to 600,000 by 2030, a target that was already reached in 2023. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 13:56:21 GMT
As for this 'subsidy' where is it explained, and how it implemented?
How do we know the additional funds accruing from foreign student tuition fees is actually used to subsidise the university education of British students and not put towards maintaining stocks of decent claret for the dons' refectory? Or funding travel to overseas academic conferences? Or endowing chairs in currently fashionable topics like gender studies?
How would such a subsidy be put in place anyway in a place like the LSE, where two-thirds of the students are foreigners?
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 14:36:44 GMT
Its a subsidy Dan because they pay substantially higher fees than "home" students and without them universities in their current form would not be sustainable. Whether universities could run more efficiently is a separate question.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 24, 2023 14:40:01 GMT
Foreign students pay a lot to be here.
Let them keep coming.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 14:43:11 GMT
Yes I'm aware that overseas student pay on average higher fees than 'home' students but what I am asking for is evidence that the additional funds are used to subsidise the education of British students.
The reason I'm asking is that I've never seen any, and suspect that what you are claiming (along with other claims made in the OP) is an article of faith rather than a verifiable truth.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 14:47:56 GMT
To put this into a proper perspective, around a third of the places at elite institutions (the THE 'Top Forty') are taken by overseas students.
They are in effect taking places that could be used to educate British students. Disallowing foreign students from these universities would free up around 300,000 places.
How much would that cost?
Peanuts. It would cost around 0.15% of GDP to replace the additional fee income paid by foreign students.
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 15:08:11 GMT
Yes I'm aware that overseas student pay on average higher fees than 'home' students but what I am asking for is evidence that the additional funds are used to subsidise the education of British students. The reason I'm asking is that I've never seen any, and suspect that what you are claiming (along with other claims made in the OP) is an article of faith rather than a verifiable truth. Basic maths surely Dan Sorry struggling to understand your point. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 15:20:29 GMT
The maths is easy dappy. Foreign students pay on average £12,750 more annually than a home student.
But that's not at issue here.
The question I am asking you is how do you know that the additional fee income is used to subsidise 'home' students?
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2023 15:36:04 GMT
The maths is pretty easy which is why I am struggling to understand your point. Universities currently are not making massive profits. Revenue and cost are roughly level.
If a University needs to earn a total revenue of say £9000 from 100 students to break even
. Category A students pay twice as much as category B. There are equal numbers of both.
The 50 category A students each pay £120 each , category B each pay £60 each.
If you ban category A students and replace them with category B then the 100 category B students now have to pay £90 each as the category A subsidy is now removed.
You may argue that the Uni is badly run and should reduce its cost to 6000. That simply reduces the prices payable by category A and B. It doesn’t eliminate the simple fact that A is subsidising B.
Only in this example if category A students cost twice as much as category B to teach would there not be a subsidy. Surely you are not arguing that?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 24, 2023 15:46:09 GMT
No. What I am arguing is that we have no idea what the additional fee income from foreign students is used for. By 'additional' I mean the differential between the £9,250 that home students pay in tuition fees and the £22,000 (on average) that universities charge foreign students.
You claim it is used to subsidise the education of home students and I am asking how you know this.
I'm looking for a verifiable source, not an imaginary spreadsheet of the sort you have just created.
If you don't have one, just say so and we'll consider the matter closed.
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