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Post by Vinny on Oct 26, 2023 12:55:24 GMT
Morayloon, Anti EU is not xenophobia, the EU is a badly run political union whose leaders, the Commission, are not elected.
The UK is a sovereign country which voted to leave that badly run political union.
Scotland is a province which voted to stay in the UK.
Get over it Anglophobe.
It's time to hold a referendum on the abolition of devolution.
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 13:05:15 GMT
It was Farage who said a 52-48 vote for remain would be "unfinished business". Why was that statement acceptable? Acceptable to who - Farage was nothing to do with the Government, or Parliament for that matter. Are you really trying to say that Farage was not a major player in the Brexit movement and that he held a lot of power? Farage was the face of Brexit and the revisionism you show is breathtaking. Stalin famously had Trotsky airbrushed out of a photo. Is this the, attempted, downgrading of the influence Farage held? If so, why? |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 13:13:32 GMT
You can say that now. But, back in 2016, I think he and the other leading xenophobes would have stirred the Brexiters up so much that a legal challenge would have came about. You were given a voice but lost a referendum but have ever since shown a bitterness towards those who won a referendum, which now it has been basically overturned by dodgy politics and stealth you are still not happy. If the boot was on the other foot, I wonder how you would react? In what way has the result "basically overturned"? Despite 50% wanting out, nothing has happened. I would defend the right of any anti-Scot living in Scotland to fight for a referendum on rejoining. However, once out I think there would be a no going back attitude. Afterall, how many countries, having left the UK fold, has sought to return? Absolutely zero. |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 13:17:23 GMT
Morayloon, Anti EU is not xenophobia, the EU is a badly run political union whose leaders, the Commission, are not elected. The UK is a sovereign country which voted to leave that badly run political union. Scotland is a province which voted to stay in the UK. Get over it Anglophobe. It's time to hold a referendum on the abolition of devolution. So, now you are accusing me of Anglophobia? Evidence please. I note that you, yet again, failed to provide evidence of Nationalist xenophobia. I remind you of the figure, 8%, relating to Scots wanting the end of devolution. Your view is basically anti-democratic |
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Post by Vinny on Oct 26, 2023 13:20:00 GMT
You blame England for everything from Tory government to Brexit ignoring the fact that Scots voted for these as well.
As for your love of polls.
I don't give a shit about polls.
What matters is votes, not polls, and you keep losing the votes.
So glad we have a Tory MP in Elgin.
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 13:26:11 GMT
You were given a voice but lost a referendum but have ever since shown a bitterness towards those who won a referendum, which now it has been basically overturned by dodgy politics and stealth you are still not happy. If the boot was on the other foot, I wonder how you would react? That almost makes the argument that a supermajority is a reasonable idea. So, you would deny democracy? 50% + 1 is the way we settle things in the UK. It was how the two relatively recent referenda were set up. Scotland should not be held prisoner in a country which 50% of Scots want to leave. Or, don't you do democracy? We won in 1979 but were thwarted by the imposition of the, undemocratic, 40% rule. After 19 years in the wilderness we built up the strength which won us devolution. That time in the wilderness has not been carried over this time as the 50% shows. Continued denial of a referendum is a dodgy stance to take. |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 13:29:59 GMT
You blame England for everything from Tory government to Brexit ignoring the fact that Scots voted for these as well. As for your love of polls. I don't give a shit about polls. What matters is votes, not polls, and you keep losing the votes. So glad we have a Tory MP in Elgin. I blame Westminster not England. Although I admit that I have moaned about the fact that it was English votes that dragged Scotland out of the EU (62% to 38% anyone). Scottish democracy was trampled underfoot in the rush to accept England's voice. |
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Post by bancroft on Oct 26, 2023 15:04:59 GMT
morayloon I certainly respect your vote to a referendum especially since Brexit and think Hamza is well within his rights to demand one in the next election manifesto. I also think now some time has passed you should be allowed to have one too. I sometimes think we are like Yugoslavia without the violence. The independence challenge for me is two fold: How you get the numbers, I can't see many pensioners voting for independence re the financial uncertainty in the short period. What happens after a 'Yes' vote, rejoin the EU, currency, borders etc.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 26, 2023 17:15:52 GMT
Acceptable to who - Farage was nothing to do with the Government, or Parliament for that matter. Are you really trying to say that Farage was not a major player in the Brexit movement and that he held a lot of power? Farage was the face of Brexit and the revisionism you show is breathtaking. Stalin famously had Trotsky airbrushed out of a photo. Is this the, attempted, downgrading of the influence Farage held? If so, why? Yes he campaigned for Brexit for many years - but if he didn't like the result of the referendum what were you expecting him to do about it?. Yes he could have continued campaigning for another referendum but I doubt he would have had much success. |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 21:18:22 GMT
morayloon I certainly respect your vote to a referendum especially since Brexit and think Hamza is well within his rights to demand one in the next election manifesto. I also think now some time has passed you should be allowed to have one too. I sometimes think we are like Yugoslavia without the violence. The independence challenge for me is two fold: How you get the numbers, I can't see many pensioners voting for independence re the financial uncertainty in the short period. What happens after a 'Yes' vote, rejoin the EU, currency, borders etc. The 70+ age group was the most anti YES. According to an Edinburgh University study into the referendum, almost 66% of this demographic voted No. In the 60-69 age group it was 56%. So, there is obviously a mountain to climb. The lies from BT and the UK Government hit home with those guys. The threat that they would lose their pension was enough to swing it. These age groups are most likely to get their news from the papers (all pro-union until the Sunday Herald changed sides), the biased beeb and STV. Additionally, the pensioners are least likely to use a pc or laptop thus they were prevented from hearing the YES side of the story. The 'new media', led by Wings Over Scotland, Bella Caledonia, Scot Goes Pop etc, were able to give the YES arguments and to rubbish much of the blatant Unionist lies. Due to the sterling work put in by Stuart Campbell etc, YES managed to add 15-20% to its support base. Going back to the age thing, people die! And a lot more deaths occur in the 70+ age group than in the others. They will be replaced by YES supporting young voters (I was surprised that the %age difference in the 16-29 group was not significantly higher) blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdfAs for your other points. Yes, the aim would be to get back into the more egalitarian EU (compared to the UK). The Scottish Currency Group is working towards formulating a policy for a new Scottish currency as soon as possible after Independence. Until then, the probability is that the £ will be used. Borders: well despite the doom and gloom merchants I believe there will be no loss of trade. Trade between Scotland and rUK is important to both and to think that English businesses will suddenly stop buying and selling to Scotland is fantasy land.  |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 21:20:23 GMT
Are you really trying to say that Farage was not a major player in the Brexit movement and that he held a lot of power? Farage was the face of Brexit and the revisionism you show is breathtaking. Stalin famously had Trotsky airbrushed out of a photo. Is this the, attempted, downgrading of the influence Farage held? If so, why? Yes he campaigned for Brexit for many years - but if he didn't like the result of the referendum what were you expecting him to do about it?. Yes he could have continued campaigning for another referendum but I doubt he would have had much success. What he did before the referendum. Stir up an almighty row. He was successful then and there is little doubt he would have been successful again. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 26, 2023 21:25:03 GMT
Yes he campaigned for Brexit for many years - but if he didn't like the result of the referendum what were you expecting him to do about it?. Yes he could have continued campaigning for another referendum but I doubt he would have had much success. What he did before the referendum. Stir up an almighty row. He was successful then and there is little doubt he would have been successful again. Well he was successful in large part because we were not given a say on whether we wanted to join the EU in the first place - in the aftermath of a referendum I doubt he would have continued to attract as much support for running the same campaign again. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2023 21:59:30 GMT
Well yes, but thats the point though .... We CAN change the decision of the 2019 general election if enough people change their minds. In effect, this is a really good argument for having a "Super Majority" in referendums, so that there's no question of revisiting the question within at least a lifetime. If 55% of the people in NI (or Scotland) voted in favour of leaving the Union how sustainable do you think it would be if Westminster then said no that is not enough? A vote to leave the United Kingdom by Scottish voters of 55% to 45% in my opinion is not decisive, the differential is less than the population of Edinburgh. The electorate could easily change their minds in just a year or two, this is a really difficult argument, some would sat that a majority is a majority, but what would happen if two years later it seemed that most people then wanted Scotland to return to the United Kingdom. There is a valid argument in favour of Super Majorities |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 26, 2023 22:06:17 GMT
If 55% of the people in NI (or Scotland) voted in favour of leaving the Union how sustainable do you think it would be if Westminster then said no that is not enough? A vote to leave the United Kingdom by Scottish voters of 55% to 45% in my opinion is not decisive, the differential is less than the population of Edinburgh. The electorate could easily change their minds in just a year or two, this is a really difficult argument, some would sat that a majority is a majority, but what would happen if two years later it seemed that most people then wanted Scotland to return to the United Kingdom. There is a valid argument in favour of Super Majorities In one way I agree with you but I simply think it would be untenable in reality - a clear majority to leave and Westminster stops them?. It's not politically feasible. |
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Post by morayloon on Oct 26, 2023 23:51:11 GMT
If 55% of the people in NI (or Scotland) voted in favour of leaving the Union how sustainable do you think it would be if Westminster then said no that is not enough? A vote to leave the United Kingdom by Scottish voters of 55% to 45% in my opinion is not decisive, the differential is less than the population of Edinburgh. The electorate could easily change their minds in just a year or two, this is a really difficult argument, some would sat that a majority is a majority, but what would happen if two years later it seemed that most people then wanted Scotland to return to the United Kingdom. There is a valid argument in favour of Super Majorities A majority is a majority. A simple 50%+1 sees the winner take all. In 1995, Quebec voted 50.6% to 49.4 against sovereignty. The winner won the day and the losers accepted it but the campaign for Independence remains. Tinkering with democracy is never a good thing. The only time that a majority was not a majority was in the 1979 devolution referendum when Parliament enforced the Cunningham instigated 40% rule. 40% of those on the electoral register, a register that was well out of date with a new one due in April (Referendum was held in March), meant for instance that people who had died were included in the total electorate. Labour refused to carry out the majority decision; the SNP stopped all help to the Labour Government; the SNP voted against Labour in a no confidence motion; an election was called where the SNP were decimated because of their 11 MPs role in bringing down the Government. The SNP was in the doldrums for years but eventually got back on track. The lack of any real campaign against Labour's decision to sideline devolution will not happen if we are cheated again. In 1979 51.6% voted Yes for a devolved Government, now around 50% want Independence. and that is before the campaign starts. This super majority question has muddied the water on the Independence question. Many in the SNP want support, as shown in the polls, to reach 60% over a period of time (which has never been quantified) before action should be taken. These people seem to be happy to fight for further powers to be devolved to Holyrood rather than to push the case for Independence. This Gradualist, devolutionary approach, that keeps kicking the Independence can down the road, has led to a loss of thousands of members, many of them activists the Party relied on for canvassing, delivering leaflets etc. I was one who didn't agree with the Party's thinking and left my political 'home' after 47 years membership, to join Alba. So, no a 'supermajority' will not do!!! |
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