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Post by Pacifico on Nov 4, 2023 17:35:58 GMT
I'm in the same boat: I'd like to vote for Reform. But around here, it's a two horse race between the FibDims and the Tories and our local FibDims are utter fascists so it'll have to be Tory even though they don't deserve my vote.
Where I disagree is where the alliance would form. I think that PR could just as easily result in a Tory/Reform coalition. Let's not forget that UKIP once polled 4 million votes (and didn't get a single seat) while the Greens, the SNP etc get seats on the basis of very few actual votes.
I'm willing to take a punt on PR.
It's not a case of 'taking a punt' on PR though is it. If the political system is changed to PR and turns out to be worse, there will be no going back, we'll be stuck with it. PR has caused all sorts of problems for some EU states not least of all Germany and Italy. No, I'm a big believer in that old adage 'better the devil you know'. Not sure how it would be worse - OK we might end up like Belgium with no Government at all for 2 years, but that could quite easily be an improvement. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 4, 2023 17:59:07 GMT
At the moment approximately 2% of the UK is built on. So we have enough leeway for the current population and some. Spreading scare stories about Blade runner type cities is nonsense. By all means stop immigration, but that wont help the current housing shortage, nor have anywhere near the monetary effect that reducing house prices would have. At the moment land represents 40 to 50% of the cost of building a house. If you paid the same price for building land as you do for arable land you could easily knock a 100k off the average price Building land is deliberately kept scarce to artificially inflate the price. There is loads of land that could be built on with destroying any ones view. However the houses will be built largely in areas where people want to live. Namely close to existing towns largely in the South and it is significantly more than 2% in these areas. This is also the land with the most productive agricultural yields and obviously part of England's dreaming spires and rolling countryside. There are villages in the North and in Scotland that are either declining or static. No one wants to live there. I have lived in a Scottish village over one thousand feet and it is nine months of winter and three months of bad weather and in the bad weather the midges come out to play. Houses are cheap in these areas. As an example a two bed refurbished cottage you can get for 130,000 in Wanlockhead, the highest village in Scotland. Land is already cheap and planning is easy but restricted on style. However these are not the places that will be built upon it will be round London and the Southern cities and over the Downs. It is supply and demand, you have to control demand if you cannot supply within the parameters people have set as being reasonable. The busy areas of the south of England are 8.2% built on, so still 91.8% not built on. Its a story we've all been fed. If you took another 2% of agricultural land you could build as many houses as you need and more and lose 2% of your crop growth. I chose just England for my figures because Scotland has much smaller population per sq mile. I am talking about building where the work is. How? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 4, 2023 18:12:43 GMT
It's not a case of 'taking a punt' on PR though is it. If the political system is changed to PR and turns out to be worse, there will be no going back, we'll be stuck with it. PR has caused all sorts of problems for some EU states not least of all Germany and Italy. No, I'm a big believer in that old adage 'better the devil you know'. Not sure how it would be worse - OK we might end up like Belgium with no Government at all for 2 years, but that could quite easily be an improvement. PR is supported by lefties. As at Sept 2022: 69% of LibDem voters favoured PR, 61% of Labour voters favoured PR, but only 29% of Tory voters favoured it, and the vast majority of voters who favour PR are also pro EU. PR is falling into line with the EU, it's the voting system they prefer because it's almost impossible for coalition government's to agree on anything not least of all, leaving the EU. Yes I know we're not officially in the EU but with a pro EU Labour government likely next year who knows what's around the corner. I prefer strong majority government to constant coalitions, and yes I know this government have hardly been an advert for strong majority government but that's because they're centrist rather than Conservative. PR would ensure we never saw strong majority government again which as I said, the EU approves of. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 4, 2023 19:00:32 GMT
Not sure how it would be worse - OK we might end up like Belgium with no Government at all for 2 years, but that could quite easily be an improvement. PR is supported by lefties. As at Sept 2022: 69% of LibDem voters favoured PR, 61% of Labour voters favoured PR, but only 29% of Tory voters favoured it, and the vast majority of voters who favour PR are also pro EU. PR is falling into line with the EU, it's the voting system they prefer because it's almost impossible for coalition government's to agree on anything not least of all, leaving the EU. Yes I know we're not officially in the EU but with a pro EU Labour government likely next year who knows what's around the corner. I prefer strong majority government to constant coalitions, and yes I know this government have hardly been an advert for strong majority government but that's because they're centrist rather than Conservative. PR would ensure we never saw strong majority government again which as I said, the EU approves of. TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. |
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Post by sheepy on Nov 4, 2023 19:06:50 GMT
PR is supported by lefties. As at Sept 2022: 69% of LibDem voters favoured PR, 61% of Labour voters favoured PR, but only 29% of Tory voters favoured it, and the vast majority of voters who favour PR are also pro EU. PR is falling into line with the EU, it's the voting system they prefer because it's almost impossible for coalition government's to agree on anything not least of all, leaving the EU. Yes I know we're not officially in the EU but with a pro EU Labour government likely next year who knows what's around the corner. I prefer strong majority government to constant coalitions, and yes I know this government have hardly been an advert for strong majority government but that's because they're centrist rather than Conservative. PR would ensure we never saw strong majority government again which as I said, the EU approves of. TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. Put it in an election manifesto then. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 4, 2023 19:17:22 GMT
I'm in the same boat: I'd like to vote for Reform. But around here, it's a two horse race between the FibDims and the Tories and our local FibDims are utter fascists so it'll have to be Tory even though they don't deserve my vote.
Where I disagree is where the alliance would form. I think that PR could just as easily result in a Tory/Reform coalition. Let's not forget that UKIP once polled 4 million votes (and didn't get a single seat) while the Greens, the SNP etc get seats on the basis of very few actual votes.
I'm willing to take a punt on PR.
It's not a case of 'taking a punt' on PR though is it. If the political system is changed to PR and turns out to be worse, there will be no going back, we'll be stuck with it. PR has caused all sorts of problems for some EU states not least of all Germany and Italy. No, I'm a big believer in that old adage 'better the devil you know'. I shared that opinion for years and now I've changed my mind. All that fptp has given us, in effect, is a permanent centre-left coalition of spineless wokers. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 4, 2023 19:22:49 GMT
Not sure how it would be worse - OK we might end up like Belgium with no Government at all for 2 years, but that could quite easily be an improvement. PR is supported by lefties. As at Sept 2022: 69% of LibDem voters favoured PR, 61% of Labour voters favoured PR, but only 29% of Tory voters favoured it, and the vast majority of voters who favour PR are also pro EU. PR is falling into line with the EU, it's the voting system they prefer because it's almost impossible for coalition government's to agree on anything not least of all, leaving the EU. Yes I know we're not officially in the EU but with a pro EU Labour government likely next year who knows what's around the corner. I prefer strong majority government to constant coalitions, and yes I know this government have hardly been an advert for strong majority government but that's because they're centrist rather than Conservative. PR would ensure we never saw strong majority government again which as I said, the EU approves of. Lefties favour PR because they see it guaranteeing a permanent centre-left coalition. But we already have that now. I see it differently: I think that many voters can see that we need a proper centre-right administration to sort the rot that's set in. And we clearly are never going to get that from fptp. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 4, 2023 19:24:02 GMT
TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. LOL! 🤣 |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 4, 2023 19:47:42 GMT
Its interesting you all agree that PR would give us a left of centre government.
You do realise that must mean most people want a left of centre government.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 4, 2023 19:48:13 GMT
PR is supported by lefties. As at Sept 2022: 69% of LibDem voters favoured PR, 61% of Labour voters favoured PR, but only 29% of Tory voters favoured it, and the vast majority of voters who favour PR are also pro EU. PR is falling into line with the EU, it's the voting system they prefer because it's almost impossible for coalition government's to agree on anything not least of all, leaving the EU. Yes I know we're not officially in the EU but with a pro EU Labour government likely next year who knows what's around the corner. I prefer strong majority government to constant coalitions, and yes I know this government have hardly been an advert for strong majority government but that's because they're centrist rather than Conservative. PR would ensure we never saw strong majority government again which as I said, the EU approves of. TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. Are you stating that the brain dead outnumber the sane? I do not know a single person who supports the EUSSR. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 4, 2023 19:58:23 GMT
TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. Put it in an election manifesto then. Surely you mean a referendum. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 4, 2023 20:00:48 GMT
TBH the vast majority of voters are pro EU. Full stop. Are you stating that the brain dead outnumber the sane? I do not know a single person who supports the EUSSR. No, I'm saying all the university intellectuals I know support the EU. Not surprised you know no one who supports it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2023 20:02:37 GMT
Put it in an election manifesto then. Surely you mean a referendum. I think Sheepy means a manifesto. If a party thinks it can win on the pro EU platform, write it in the manifesto to rejoin. According to Darling they'll get 63% of the vote, a landslide. Jo Swinson says different. |
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Post by sheepy on Nov 4, 2023 20:02:56 GMT
Put it in an election manifesto then. Surely you mean a referendum. No I mean if it is such a certainty Labour put it in a manifesto they will re-join. They cannot lose. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 4, 2023 20:05:28 GMT
Its interesting you all agree that PR would give us a left of centre government. You do realise that must mean most people want a left of centre government. Not what I said. Not that you'd have a clue what most people want. |
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