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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 29, 2023 13:13:12 GMT
Rape is a hard crime to get convictions on because it's usually a case of "he said, she said" with no independent witnesses. The politicians are always saying that they're trying to solve this problem - but they never actually do anything. Which is normal of course.
So what about this idea. Building on the theme that most people are not criminals it's safe to assume that most rapes are committed by a few people - and this is what the police think too. They find the same people being accused of rape by many different women. Yet in each case they can't get a conviction (or get the CPP to prosecute) because the chances of prosecution without a witness are very low. So why don't the courts allow the police to accumulate evidence on these suspected rapists and present it all in one case. All the cases could be presented together to the court, so many independent accusations of rape against one defendant could be dealt with at the same time.
The problem is that the CPP doesn't allow this - but the question is why not. After all they're perfectly happy to allow the police to go on "fishing expeditions" when a celebrity is accused of rape. The police publicise the name of the celebrity and wait for all the other abused women/men to come forward. If there's no one (as in the case of Cliff Richard) they drop the case, but if there are loads like in the case of Harvey Weinstein they prosecute and usually get a conviction.
There's no difference in principle. So why don't they change the law - if they really want to solve the problem of low conviction rates.
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Post by patman post on Sept 29, 2023 13:40:46 GMT
If there are several allegations, aren't some held back while others are taken forward to prosecution?
That way if a fairly sure prosecution initially fails on a technicality or similar, the other cases can be proceeded with...
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Post by Bentley on Sept 29, 2023 14:21:42 GMT
There are disturbing grey areas in law , it seems where rape is whatever the woman wants it to be.
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Post by bancroft on Sept 29, 2023 15:49:41 GMT
Basically if you have a girlfriend or young daughter tell them rape is a risk.
I told a female relative never to leave a drink unattended, if you got to the loo get a new drink. She thought it made sense.
Now back to the advice tell them upfront if raped your best chance of a conviction is to call the police immediately and undergo some intrusive testing for DNA.
If not, much less likely to get justice.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 29, 2023 15:55:41 GMT
Yes vigilance is wise but… there’s a thin line between advising vigilance and victim shaming( according to some ) . The former is before the assault and the latter is after the assault . Some even think that both former and latter are victim shaming .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2023 18:02:30 GMT
It's a reasonable idea but it can't be supported. 1. Sometimes the police publish the name of a suspect and encourage others to come forward if they have been victims. This can lead to false accusations, especially if the suspect is a rich celebrity, such as Rolf Harris.
2. People are entitled to have a fair trial, even people with previous convictions cannot have them mentioned in court, (exceptions, I know). Introducing similar complaints may prove a modus operandi, especially if it is a particularly unusual method.
steppenwolf - you could explain how this is good for justice for rape victims AND fair to any suspect, who may be innocent.
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Post by Handyman on Sept 29, 2023 18:14:55 GMT
If there are several allegations, aren't some held back while others are taken forward to prosecution? That way if a fairly sure prosecution initially fails on a technicality or similar, the other cases can be proceeded with... No if they have multiple rape victims and the proof evidence to link one suspect or more to all of them the suspect or suspects will be charged and all will be dealt with in one trial, if at all possible
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Post by Handyman on Sept 29, 2023 18:23:34 GMT
Basically if you have a girlfriend or young daughter tell them rape is a risk. I told a female relative never to leave a drink unattended, if you got to the loo get a new drink. She thought it made sense. Now back to the advice tell them upfront if raped your best chance of a conviction is to call the police immediately and undergo some intrusive testing for DNA. If not, much less likely to get justice. Good advice on the drinks, and good advice if they are raped call the Police ASAP, they will tell the victim do not wash shower, do not change your clothing, they will then be taken to a Rape Centre with specially trained Officer, there clothing with be bagged and tagged , Forensic Officers will take DNA on their bodies external and internal that be preserved for Forensic evidence, then given medication to ensure they do not fall pregnant, and medication to deal with any sexually transmitted disease
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Post by seniorcitizen007 on Sept 30, 2023 2:37:59 GMT
A woman I knew invited me back to her place for sex. After a few minutes she screwed up her face and said: "I've come. Have you finished?" I carried on ... for some time. She suddenly got annoyed at me ... but after a couple of words of angry verbal: "GET OFF M...", she climaxed. Her skin went pink. She began sweating profusely and making loud orgasmic sounds. Then she gave me an almighty shove and I ended up on the floor. She sat up ... with an ecstatic look on her face ... and said: "Your making me ill". Followed by: "I'm having visions of hellfire". I was a squatter. She told the others I'd raped her. The women acted as if they were turned on by the thought of me being a rapist. Three women with excited looks on their faces wanting to know what I'd done.
I had to talk my way out of being beaten up by several of the men.
If I'd ended up in court would a jury have accepted that she'd never had an orgasm before and it freaked her out?
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 30, 2023 6:59:05 GMT
It's a reasonable idea but it can't be supported. 1. Sometimes the police publish the name of a suspect and encourage others to come forward if they have been victims. This can lead to false accusations, especially if the suspect is a rich celebrity, such as Rolf Harris. 2. People are entitled to have a fair trial, even people with previous convictions cannot have them mentioned in court, (exceptions, I know). Introducing similar complaints may prove a modus operandi, especially if it is a particularly unusual method. steppenwolf - you could explain how this is good for justice for rape victims AND fair to any suspect, who may be innocent. Benjamin Franklin said that "it's better that 100 guilty people go free than one innocent person should suffer". And that's roughly the situation we have with rape with less than a 2% conviction rate. I agree with Franklin's sentiment but I think we should be able to do better than that nowadays. The police say that many of the people who are accused of rape have been the subject of previous accusations (by different women) but - for one reason or another - the CPS decides not to prosecute. Yet if one person is the subject of multiple accusations by different women it surely is relevant information. And the police have this information but can't use it. As I've said this principle has already been accepted in the case of celebrities. The police openly name the accused and ask for other victims to come forward. And when they do they prosecute. Yet the possibility of false accusations is obviously there - they just have to be filtered out. In the case of using existing information about previous assaults by "non-celebrities" the possibility of false accusations is far less, I would have thought. We seem to have accepted allowing the previous convictions to be disclosed to the jury in certain situations and the jury can already research a defendant's record on the internet if they want - although they're told not to by the judge. It's a small step to disclose previous accusations in certain cases. Basically offenders know that the chances of getting away with rape are very high - indeed it's highly unlikely that any rapist will get prosecuted. All the politicians talk about "doing something" about it, but they never do. This change would actually make a difference IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 19:57:04 GMT
The problem with rape as a prosecutable crime is that there are rarely any witnesses to it, so it comes down to his word against hers. If she reports it soon enough and is sensible enough not to take a bath or a shower until afterwards, DNA evidence will often prove that intercourse took place and that it was with the accused. But proving that it was forced and not consensual is very difficult unless sufficient violence is used to leave evidence of that violence. But quite often a woman will freeze with fear instead of fighting back, especially if a knife is held to her throat or something like that, which can mean though still a rape, the supporting evidence of violence or physical restraint might be lacking or at least inconclusive.
And demonstrating a mans guilt if he has been spotted by numerous witnesses in a bar or some such place, laughing and joking with the alleged victim, and leaving with her arm in arm, is going to be a problem because consensual sex will look at least as likely as rape. A rapist of course might well turn on the charm so that it looks that way to numerous witnesses. Yet there are cases where women consent to sex but regret it in the morning, thinking they have been taken advantage of and make a false accusation.
These inherent difficulties will inevitably result in low conviction rates because of the long standing legal convention of innocent until proven guilty, with that guilt needing to be demonstrated to be beyond any reasonable doubt. And there will often be a very reasonable doubt about the certainty of guilt in many cases, in which cases the jury are advised to acquit.
The best thing women can do to protect themselves, deter rapists, or have them successfully prosecuted if they do commit such a crime, especially when out drinking, is to always be in groups. Rapists are unlikely to target women in groups, and if they did a group of them would have a good chance of fighting one man off, which the rapist on the hunt will know. And even if he did manage to abduct one of them, the friends she is with will alert the police immediately, and act as witnesses if necessary in court.
For such reasons, rapists on the prowl will almost never target a woman in a group but will look for one on her own.
Of course an additional problem is that many rape victims are raped by people they know and have previously trusted - work colleagues or even people they have been dating, even their husbands in some cases. Until recent decades that latter was not even recognised as a crime. The added problem of course in many of these cases is that the rapist will often have enjoyed genuinely consensual sex with the victim on many earlier occasions. In most such cases, proving rape beyond any reasonable doubt is going to be next to impossible. All I can say is that women should exercise wisdom in whom they choose to have sex with and when and would be best advised to make such decisions when sober. Going off with some guy she has only just met when drunk, either to his place or her own, is very high risk behaviour.
And the effects of excessive alcohol upon the judgement of both parties could all too easily result in giving out or receiving misunderstood signals, as well as screwing with the judgement of both in regards to their own behaviours and actions. And it can lead to things being misremembered or not remembered at all in the morning.
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 4, 2023 7:23:50 GMT
This is just a long-winded statement of the obvious SRB - with an added bit of victim blaming for good measure. Did you even read my OP?
My point is that most crime is committed by a small number of people and it's the same with rape. Most rapists are serial rapists and the police know this because they have records of previous accusations against certain people. The problem is that they can't present these previous accusations in court. Yet in the case of a celebrity it seems to be accepted by the police that putting the name of the celebrity in the press and waiting for accusations from other victims is a good way of getting a conviction - after all it's worked in many cases, like Weinstein.
So how is it different in principle to present the court with a number of previous rape accusations against a defendant? None of the individual cases on their own may prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man is a rapist, but if, say, 5 other people have independently accused a defendant of rape I'd say that makes a far stronger case.
But under current law a rapist can commit loads of rapes in the certain knowledge that each one has to be judged separately - so the CPS will probably never bring any of them to court because it's just a case of one person's word against another. It's ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 9:29:39 GMT
This is just a long-winded statement of the obvious SRB - with an added bit of victim blaming for good measure. Did you even read my OP? My point is that most crime is committed by a small number of people and it's the same with rape. Most rapists are serial rapists and the police know this because they have records of previous accusations against certain people. The problem is that they can't present these previous accusations in court. Yet in the case of a celebrity it seems to be accepted by the police that putting the name of the celebrity in the press and waiting for accusations from other victims is a good way of getting a conviction - after all it's worked in many cases, like Weinstein. So how is it different in principle to present the court with a number of previous rape accusations against a defendant? None of the individual cases on their own may prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man is a rapist, but if, say, 5 other people have independently accused a defendant of rape I'd say that makes a far stronger case. But under current law a rapist can commit loads of rapes in the certain knowledge that each one has to be judged separately - so the CPS will probably never bring any of them to court because it's just a case of one person's word against another. It's ridiculous. Rape is potentially a life imprisonment offence, steppenwolf. (And rightly so). It therefore deserves a high standard of evidence to convict. You appear to want to reduce the standard of evidence to get more convictions. As I said earlier, it can't be done, and for good reason. We don't want to be sending anyone to prison for life on substandard evidence. Let's face it, there are people on here who claim the standard of evidence was not high enough in the multiple murder case which put Lucy Letby inside. You want a lower standard than that?
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 5, 2023 6:47:45 GMT
So how is it different in principle to present the court with a number of previous rape accusations against a defendant? None of the individual cases on their own may prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man is a rapist, but if, say, 5 other people have independently accused a defendant of rape I'd say that makes a far stronger case. But under current law a rapist can commit loads of rapes in the certain knowledge that each one has to be judged separately - so the CPS will probably never bring any of them to court because it's just a case of one person's word against another. It's ridiculous. Rape is potentially a life imprisonment offence, steppenwolf. (And rightly so). It therefore deserves a high standard of evidence to convict. You appear to want to reduce the standard of evidence to get more convictions. As I said earlier, it can't be done, and for good reason. We don't want to be sending anyone to prison for life on substandard evidence. Let's face it, there are people on here who claim the standard of evidence was not high enough in the multiple murder case which put Lucy Letby inside. You want a lower standard than that? I am trying to get more convictions but I don't think I'm necessarily "reducing the standard of evidence". In fact I'm providing more evidence to allow a jury to make a more accurate decision. Take the recent case of Andrew Malkinson who was released after 17 years for a rape he didn't commit. He was convicted purely on the basis of an identity parade. If his previous record had been given to the jury it would have shown that this was not the type of crime that he committed, which might have given the jury pause for thought. And, as I said, this type of evidence is already accepted in the case of the trials of celebrities for rape. In fact it's even more unsafe in this case because it can obviously attract "fantasists" and the like. But it's still allowed. The actor Noel Clarke was accused of rape by one person and about 20 others came forward with accusations. Even then the police didn't charge him. It's still a matter of judging the quality of the evidence. Mind you, I think most people in showbiz have made their own minds up on this case. In the case of Lucy Letby I'm pretty surprised that she was found guilty. The evidence against her was mainly circumstantial - based on the fact that statistically she seemed to be present when most of the deaths occurred. But this type of thing can happen for many reasons. For example she often volunteered for extra shifts and she liked working with the sickest babies because she regarded herself as a very good nurse. There were the strange notes in her diary of course but these don't prove anything. Peter Hitchens recently wrote of a case in Holland (Lucia de Berk) which was almost exactly the same as the Letby case and she was also convicted but later exonerated.
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Post by johnofgwent on Oct 5, 2023 7:25:40 GMT
If there are several allegations, aren't some held back while others are taken forward to prosecution? That way if a fairly sure prosecution initially fails on a technicality or similar, the other cases can be proceeded with... i can’t say i’ve ever heard of that and i’d be minded to consider such antics the reason why we had double jeopardy before blair destroyed it. The reality surely is that the prosecution should put up each and every occurrence of an allegation at the same trial. It seems to me hard to understand what evidential complication outside of utter incompetence as evidenced by Freddy Patel or the twat who swabbed was it the Birmingham six or the Guildford Four should cause dismissal of all charges in a multiple charge count trial. My only background here is my postgrad course in being an expert witness but let me put this as a possibility. If a jury finds a rapist guilty of one act on a Monday, is not the ‘fairness in english law’ of a subsequent trial of the now convicted rapist for a similar offence against another person the following day at risk on the grounds tbe first verdict prejudices the mindset of the new trial jury ….
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