|
Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2023 12:50:13 GMT
Of course the reason why we see black faces everywhere is deliberate racial policy and not just at the BBC. The 'diversity and inclusion' section of the annual report of the Home Office includes a proud boast that the 2025 target for ethnic minority staff (24%) was already met in 2022. In 2022 the proportion of white British recruits in the Civil Service Fast Stream was 66% compared to 81% of the population of England and Wales (2021). It's institutional racism. It may be OTT in some cases, but it is an attempt to change the innate racism that has existed in this country for too long. You are not changing innate racism, you are supposedly countering its effects and in the process doing exactly what you are trying to stop except with different beneficiaries and victims.
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Sept 25, 2023 12:51:06 GMT
Politics (and by extension laws) is about balancing peoples conflicting rights - in this case prioritising individuals rights not to be discriminated against on the basis of their sex, race, sexuality etc over other peoples rights to discriminate. As ever its about finding the best balance between the two. Why is it wrong to discriminate on race, is there a moral argument that says this must not happen. I think the argument is that people can't help being Black so it should be a "protected characteristic". But they also list religion as a protected characteristic when it's entirely possible for people to change the way they think - or even start to think. I'm all in favour of a complete rethink of protected characteristics. Like maybe there shouldn't be any.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2023 12:52:19 GMT
Like I said Sandy, its a political choice balancing conflicting rights - just like for example speeding laws. Our representatives have decided that the need to prevent people from being treated unfairly based on race, sex, sexuality etc is more important than protecting the rights of those who wish to discriminate based on those characteristics. Choosing between conflicting rights is the essence of what politics is about. Hence we have jointly decided that it is not allowed under the law to base recruitment decisions on race - (in any direction) So there is no moral case as regards why discrimination is wrong, so, unless I transgress the law, discrimination is fine? Is that your position?
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Sept 25, 2023 12:58:09 GMT
Personally I think there is a moral case - we should seek to judge people as people and seek to equalise their opportunities rather than those opportunities being limited based on their race, sex, sexuality etc. You are free of course to have a different moral judgement emphasising the rights of the discriminator over the rights of the discriminated. That's perfectly legitimate too. As I said the role of politics (and from that the law) is to balance those rights and decide which to prioritise. I think in this case we have broadly got it right but you are perfectly entitled to argue the opposite case. Its what a democracy is.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Sept 25, 2023 13:02:40 GMT
I know you have a tendency to want to boil the ocean when faced with a fairly simple question dappy, but I'm still puzzled how you can perform the mental gyrations to deny that white British are not seriously under-represented in recruitment to the Civil Service Fast Stream programme.
In 2022 they formed 76% of the population but only 66% of recruits; how to wish this simple fact away?
Please don't try again to square your circle by introducing white 'Other' into the argument since they are only relevant in the sense that they form part of the 'not white British' cohort. As you note we are not told how many there were.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Sept 25, 2023 13:13:59 GMT
As I explained Dan, the Civil Service Fast Track service recruits almost exclusively from new graduates who are mostly aged 21-23.
So if you are looking for evidence of under or over representation, you need to compare offers made to white British people to population of white British people aged 21-23. (You seem to be factoring in ethnic split of for example 70 year olds - that is simply not comparing like with like and hence your conclusions based on that data are false).
Just to illustrate the point - over 50% of Britons are currently married, yet the percentage of offerees to the Civil Service Fast Track scheme who are married is likely to be less than 10%. You would be seeking to claim this is evidence of discrimination against married people. That would be false.
The facts are that the proportion of white people offered jobs in the fast track system is almost exactly proportionate to the racial mix of the talent pool from which they are selected.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2023 13:31:28 GMT
Personally I think there is a moral case - we should seek to judge people as people and seek to equalise their opportunities rather than those opportunities being limited based on their race, sex, sexuality etc. You are free of course to have a different moral judgement emphasising the rights of the discriminator over the rights of the discriminated. That's perfectly legitimate too. As I said the role of politics (and from that the law) is to balance those rights and decide which to prioritise. I think in this case we have broadly got it right but you are perfectly entitled to argue the opposite case. Its what a democracy is. I thought we now did judge people as people and the moral case is that we do not discriminate against individuals based on race etc. As regards equalising opportunities that can only be measured against identities and removes individuality from consideration as you seek to equalise numbers proportionally in any field. To do this one must discriminate against/for individuals based on their race which is the very thing one is trying to erase. It makes little sense both morally and when one regards it through the prism of individual human rights where it is our government making laws that discriminate currently against one specific group. I am sure that if we said we must have fewer Jews in Parliament as they are way over represented there would be no end of complaints.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Sept 25, 2023 13:40:36 GMT
Personally I think there is a moral case - we should seek to judge people as people and seek to equalise their opportunities rather than those opportunities being limited based on their race, sex, sexuality etc. You are free of course to have a different moral judgement emphasising the rights of the discriminator over the rights of the discriminated. That's perfectly legitimate too. As I said the role of politics (and from that the law) is to balance those rights and decide which to prioritise. I think in this case we have broadly got it right but you are perfectly entitled to argue the opposite case. Its what a democracy is. I thought we now did judge people as people and the moral case is that we do not discriminate against individuals based on race etc. As regards equalising opportunities that can only be measured against identities and removes individuality from consideration as you seek to equalise numbers proportionally in any field. Indeed. The moment you say, "we need to aim for this racial outcome and modify our behavior to get it", you are employing racism.
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2023 14:33:11 GMT
IMO, there is only a problem where or when there is excessive discrimination against one group or another. If that discrimination is based upon colour or sexual orientation, or whatever else that may be an infringement of the rights and civil liberties of any person, it needs to be held to account. Civil Liberty. __"a person's rights to be subject only to laws established for the good of the community:"__ which does not include being subjected to or controlled by racism or prejudice. You are using words in that definition incorrectly - ie the word subjectIf you ask a person to marry you, you are (of course) subject to their refusal. However, there is no law that creates such a refusal and your civil liberties have not been negated by it. The definition you quoted uses the word subject as a shorthand to describe the actions of government on citizens.. Winding back a bit - I don't see discrimination on any basis as an infringement of rights, because the right not be discriminated against isn't a coherent right (as explained earlier in the thread) They are not my words, they are a copy and pasted definition of Civil Liberty. They refer to being subjected the laws of the land established for the good of the country. A right to be treated equally and fairly?
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2023 14:38:38 GMT
It may be OTT in some cases, but it is an attempt to change the innate racism that has existed in this country for too long. You are not changing innate racism, you are supposedly countering its effects and in the process doing exactly what you are trying to stop except with different beneficiaries and victims. If innate racism becomes a worthless phrase and racism is accepted by more people as wrong, then racism will eventually be reduced and perhaps even fade away. But if it is ignored it will will continue to raise its ugly head specifically every now and then.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Sept 25, 2023 14:58:52 GMT
You are using words in that definition incorrectly - ie the word subjectIf you ask a person to marry you, you are (of course) subject to their refusal. However, there is no law that creates such a refusal and your civil liberties have not been negated by it. The definition you quoted uses the word subject as a shorthand to describe the actions of government on citizens.. Winding back a bit - I don't see discrimination on any basis as an infringement of rights, because the right not be discriminated against isn't a coherent right (as explained earlier in the thread) They are not my words, they are a copy and pasted definition of Civil Liberty. They refer to being subjected the laws of the land established for the good of the country. A right to be treated equally and fairly? I just told you - the words are not wrong, but you are interpreting them incorrectly. I gave an illustration (a marriage proposal) to show that your interpretation is absurd.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Sept 25, 2023 15:00:28 GMT
dappy: you seem to want to bring in all kinds of new variables for which no meaningful data exists, but I'll play along for now. "The facts are that the proportion of white people offered jobs in the fast track system is almost exactly proportionate to the racial mix of the talent pool from which they are selected." You suggest that talent pool consists of university graduates in their early 20s, which seems feasible on the face of it. Do you know what the racial mix of that pool was in, say, 2021 and does that confirm your thesis?
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2023 15:05:27 GMT
If a white Person is discriminated against that act is just as racist as if a black Person is discriminated against . Doesn’t matter if the ones supporting this racism has convinced themselves it’s for the greater good . If the lefties here believe that racism should be eradicated then they should eradicate all racism . Not support the racism that makes them feel good about themselves .
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Sept 25, 2023 15:07:24 GMT
I know Dan as I have said that in 2021 (i dont have figures for 2022) that 76.6% of offers made to Fast Track applicants were made to white people. I also know that 75.8% of people aged between 18 and 24 had white skin. On that basis there is no obvious sign of any discrimination.
Of the 76.6% white offerees 69.8% were White British and 6.8% White other.
I also know that white applicants made up 70.3% of total applications but that white applicants made up 76.6% of offerees.
Nowhere in those figures is any suggestion of racial bias.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Sept 25, 2023 15:11:14 GMT
The free-school-meals civil service intake is an interesting category — is there a racial breakdown for this…? Yes.
Ethnicity Percent Asian - Bangaladeshi 30.52 Asian - Chinese 7.83 Asian - Indian 7.43 Asian - Pakistani 25.54 Black - Any other Black background 37.51 Black - Black African 32.4 Black - Black Caribbean 42.83 Mixed - Any other Mixed background 27.42 Mixed - White and Asian 21.42 Mixed - White and Black African 34 Mixed - White and Black Carribean 43.43 Unclassified 26.57 White - Any other White background 18.06 White - Gypsy/Roma 54.84 White - Irish 20.8 White - Traveller of Irish heritage 64.68 White - White British 22.84
|
|