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Post by Orac on Sept 23, 2023 14:27:52 GMT
If the world's population started plummeting, this would add some circumstantial evidence to the view / theory.
Presently i view the theory as little but an attempt to morally rationalise territorial capture.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 15:09:51 GMT
The argument about the first safe country they arrive in having to take them is IMO unfair and wrong. But entirely separate from the argument that very many of them are fraudsters and economic migrants anyway. You speak for the UK public on this as well. Wow. Only the polls that have recently hardened against illegal immigrants still put 56% of brits in favour of allowing refugees to settle. Still I expect they all phoned you personally. You view it from a different angle from me. My view is that there are X amount of people needing asylum and X amount of countries able to provide it. The load should be shared among them. If a country does not wish to provide asylum then they should say so and accept the judgement of the civilised world. Not pretend they care while doing everything in their power to force the problems on others. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 23, 2023 15:20:14 GMT
My view is that there are X amount of people needing asylum and X amount of countries able to provide it. The load should be shared among them. Sure. You want to get as many people in to the UK as you possibly can and this would be an ideal way to achieve this. However, I was talking very much about the objectives of asylum itself. What is your estimate on the number of people potentially qualifying for asylum in the west? Somewhere around 300 million? |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 15:25:30 GMT
Zany says we cannot insulate ourselves from the world's storms because to attempt to do so would render us un-human. Now, besides being an advocate for compassion when confronted by the problems of others, I believe that Zany is also a strong supporter of the theory that the climate is changing for the worse in large parts of the world if not so much where we live. Indeed closely associated with the climate change theory is the belief that one outcome will be that large parts of the world will be very adversely impacted in terms of their agricultural productivity and loss of habitat due to rising seawater levels. According to some observers, the net result is likely to be anywhere 200 million and 1.2 billion 'climate refugees' by 2050. Should we be taking steps now to help with this problem by planning to re-settle some of these refugees in Europe generally and the UK in particular? What would our 'fair share' then be? There could be 1.2 billion climate refugees by 2050Well I prefer using our brains. I believe technology could reverse climate change, make countries able to feed their populations etc. Ever the optimist. But someone has to challenge the naysayers. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 15:26:05 GMT
My view is that there are X amount of people needing asylum and X amount of countries able to provide it. The load should be shared among them. and this would be an ideal way to achieve this. However, I was talking very much about the objectives of asylum itself. What is your estimate on the number of people potentially qualifying for asylum in the west? Somewhere around 300 million? Sigh. |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2023 15:30:41 GMT
Sure. You want to get as many people in to the UK as you possibly can and this would be an ideal way to achieve this. However, I was talking very much about the objectives of asylum itself. What is your estimate on the number of people potentially qualifying for asylum in the west? Somewhere around 300 million? Sigh. Sigh Indeed. You are like someone who wants to poke a hole in a boat while insisting only some of the water will enter the boat. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 23, 2023 15:37:47 GMT
Sure. You want to get as many people in to the UK as you possibly can and this would be an ideal way to achieve this. However, I was talking very much about the objectives of asylum itself. What is your estimate on the number of people potentially qualifying for asylum in the west? Somewhere around 300 million? Sigh. I don't think that is an unfair characterisation of your motives. 1) A system in which each nation can decide the level of its charity and is responsible to providing it. This keeps the burden under democratic control. 2) A system that allows one agent to engage in charity and pass on the costs of that 'charity' by sharing (forcing it on) everyone. Option 2 allows one agent to massively increase the burden unilaterally, while nobody else has any control (no democratic control). This system is far, far more likely to result in a massive burden being accepted. You prefer option 2 for obvious reasons. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 23, 2023 16:38:42 GMT
Zany: "The argument about the first safe country they arrive in having to take them is IMO unfair and wrong." In general migrants from Afro-Asia arrive one of the Mediterranean countries: Greece, Italy or Spain. For each of these countries their long and open Mediterranean coastline gives them a huge advantage in terms of the tourist business especially with respect to other European countries. Doesn't that seem unfair too? Shouldn't they take an extra responsibility by not admitting unwanted migrants who are more likely than not going to attempt to move on to other countries? That is, after all, what they signed up for when joining the Schengen Area. It seems to me that the operative rule ought to be if you admit migrants for whatever reason then they are yours to keep. There should be no obligation on other European countries to take them off your hands and, if there is any 'leakage', you should be obliged to take them back on request. I disagree. But its just a matter of opinion. Some think "Its better them than us" some think "Its not our problem" some think "I couldn't give a stuff if they all just die" I think part of being human is to care for others and we cannot insulate ourselves from the worlds storms in this way. But no opinion carries more weight than any other. Part of being human is to care for others seems reasonable but is there a line drawn as the suffering of others world wide in which we or you could do something probably runs into the billions. The opinion is at what point that limit to help is reached and more importantly if it is democratically decided what our limits are then those indeed are the limits. Some groups seem to be usurping that process through 'charity work', 'by legal means' and by reference to courts beyond the reach of the UK electorate. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2023 17:59:21 GMT
Hammer blow for EUSSR! Euroscepticism spreads as Europe turns away from Left-wing agenda. The vision of a Left-wing Europe that excites "Re-joiners" is collapsing, according to leading Brexiteers who see eurosceptics on the march across the continent. Parties on the populist Right with radically conservative social views have taken power or become major electoral forces in a string of states, with profound consequences for the future of the EUSSR. The ideal of a federalist, Left-leaning union pushed forward by successive French and German governments has now been challenged by the rise of nationalist and hard Right parties. Polish-born Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski claimed the only people left "enthusiastic about the EUSSR project" were Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and his supporters. Right-wing administrations in Hungary and Poland have horrified European liberals with their stance on issues including gay rights. But populist parties have won influence far beyond Eastern Europe, with Brothers of Italy co-founder Giorgia Meloni becoming Prime Minister and many Scandinavian voters embracing the likes of the Finns Party and Sweden Democrats.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 18:14:35 GMT
Sigh Indeed. You are like someone who wants to poke a hole in a boat while insisting only some of the water will enter the boat. A small hole? |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 18:16:45 GMT
I don't think that is an unfair characterisation of your motives. 1) A system in which each nation can decide the level of its charity and is responsible to providing it. This keeps the burden under democratic control. 2) A system that allows one agent to engage in charity and pass on the costs of that 'charity' by sharing (forcing it on) everyone. Option 2 allows one agent to massively increase the burden unilaterally, while nobody else has any control (no democratic control). This system is far, far more likely to result in a massive burden being accepted. You prefer option 2 for obvious reasons. I have given you my views a dozen times. They have never involved an open door policy. But I guess that's all you can argue against. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 18:18:37 GMT
Hammer blow for EUSSR! Euroscepticism spreads as Europe turns away from Left-wing agenda. The vision of a Left-wing Europe that excites "Re-joiners" is collapsing, according to leading Brexiteers who see eurosceptics on the march across the continent. Parties on the populist Right with radically conservative social views have taken power or become major electoral forces in a string of states, with profound consequences for the future of the EUSSR. The ideal of a federalist, Left-leaning union pushed forward by successive French and German governments has now been challenged by the rise of nationalist and hard Right parties. Polish-born Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski claimed the only people left "enthusiastic about the EUSSR project" were Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and his supporters. Right-wing administrations in Hungary and Poland have horrified European liberals with their stance on issues including gay rights. But populist parties have won influence far beyond Eastern Europe, with Brothers of Italy co-founder Giorgia Meloni becoming Prime Minister and many Scandinavian voters embracing the likes of the Finns Party and Sweden Democrats.
Just curious are you against gay rights as well as asylum seekers. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2023 18:23:08 GMT
Hammer blow for EUSSR! Euroscepticism spreads as Europe turns away from Left-wing agenda. The vision of a Left-wing Europe that excites "Re-joiners" is collapsing, according to leading Brexiteers who see eurosceptics on the march across the continent. Parties on the populist Right with radically conservative social views have taken power or become major electoral forces in a string of states, with profound consequences for the future of the EUSSR. The ideal of a federalist, Left-leaning union pushed forward by successive French and German governments has now been challenged by the rise of nationalist and hard Right parties. Polish-born Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski claimed the only people left "enthusiastic about the EUSSR project" were Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and his supporters. Right-wing administrations in Hungary and Poland have horrified European liberals with their stance on issues including gay rights. But populist parties have won influence far beyond Eastern Europe, with Brothers of Italy co-founder Giorgia Meloni becoming Prime Minister and many Scandinavian voters embracing the likes of the Finns Party and Sweden Democrats.
Just curious are you against gay rights as well as asylum seekers. What has that to do with it? Of course I have nothing against gay people. The issue I have are the wankers who push the bollocks that there are over 150 different genders and this is being pushed upon our kids at school. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 23, 2023 18:30:38 GMT
Just curious are you against gay rights as well as asylum seekers. What has that to do with it? Of course I have nothing against gay people. The issue I have are the wankers who push the bollocks that there are over 150 different genders and this is being pushed upon our kids at school. I did intend to imply or offend. I was just curious how close you were to the Right wing views burgeoning in Bulgaria/Poland etc? Kids being taught at school that its OK to be gay is no bad thing, not sure what else they teach other than the extremes the papers tell us of. |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2023 18:30:45 GMT
Sigh Indeed. You are like someone who wants to poke a hole in a boat while insisting only some of the water will enter the boat. A small hole? Thanks for confirming my point . |
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