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Post by sheepy on Sept 13, 2023 17:05:19 GMT
Major's lowest year was 1991 - Blairs was 2002. Was debt lower in 1991 or 2002? Take your time... Perhaps if you were to actually read what I have stated, and then think about it, then you would understand where I am coming from. THIS is what I stated "at no time under the Premiership of Tony Blair was debt higher than it was under John Major" It is a factual statement, it is the truth, and I am pointing out to the Tory Apologists that at the same time, massive improvements were made to the NHS. I guess you don't understand, doing exactly the same things expecting a different outcome is definitely madness.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 13, 2023 17:17:30 GMT
Yes it seems they followed Tory spending plans while still managing fantastic improvements in the NHS. Pure genius. Not genius - PFI ... which is where the conversation started. And where did PFI leave us? Round and round. PFI did not staff the NHS nor cut waiting lists.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 17:17:49 GMT
John Major Government --------------------- 93 - 94 ... 6.6% 94 - 95 ... 5.3% 95 - 96 ... 4.3% 96 - 97 ... 3.0%
Tony Blair Government --------------------- 97 - 98 ... 0.9% 98 - 99 ... Budget Surplus 99 - 00 ... Budget Surplus 00 - 01 ... Budget Surplus 01 - 02 ... 0.5% 02 - 03 ... 2.8% 03 - 04 ... 3.3% 04 - 05 ... 3.7% 05 - 06 ... 3.1% 06 - 07 ... 2.7% 07 - 08 ... 2.9%
Figures are Public Debt as a percentage of GDP, otherwise known as The Real Measure
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 13, 2023 17:32:02 GMT
If you think that Debt only accounted for a maximum of 3.7% of GDP then you might need to have a chat with the guys in white coats.
When Labour left office Debt was over 60% GDP and now its 100%.
I suspect you are confusing debt with deficit...
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Post by Vinny on Sept 13, 2023 17:55:38 GMT
Forgetful, early 90's because of Europhile extremists like John Major, we were in the ERM.
John Major took Norman Lamont into a room full of Europhile extremists and ordered him to spend, to shore up the pound and keep us in.
Had Labour won in 1992 they were lead by Neil Kinnock another extremist Europhile, the same thing would have happened.
As a result we ended up in a short recession, the economy recovered and the deficit started falling.
Gordon Brown adopted Ken Clarke's budget in 1997 and for his first term ran a surplus. If he'd done that for term two and term three there would possibly have been a term four.
But the man is a spendaholic who put the national finances on the never never.
Until Labour learn, they will keep making the same mistakes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 17:57:40 GMT
uk-net-borrowing-93-22-marks-1000x705.png 1.webp (43.58 KB) I believe that Pacifico is mixing up "Public Debt" with "National Debt" Public Debt is the deficit or Budget Deficit, whereas National Debt is the total of accumulated debt for which the deficit adds to. I accept that it is confusing
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Post by zanygame on Sept 13, 2023 18:15:19 GMT
Forgetful, early 90's because of Europhile extremists like John Major, we were in the ERM. John Major took Norman Lamont into a room full of Europhile extremists and ordered him to spend, to shore up the pound and keep us in. Had Labour won in 1992 they were lead by Neil Kinnock another extremist Europhile, the same thing would have happened. As a result we ended up in a short recession, the economy recovered and the deficit started falling. Gordon Brown adopted Ken Clarke's budget in 1997 and for his first term ran a surplus. If he'd done that for term two and term three there would possibly have been a term four. But the man is a spendaholic who put the national finances on the never never. Until Labour learn, they will keep making the same mistakes. I remember John Majors pet project well. Nearly ruined me. But the reason for the problem was not a desire to keep us in but an overvaluation of the pound and a refusal of Major to admit he got it wrong until far too late. What Neil Kinnock would have done is just dreaming to make Majors catastrophe sound better. And regardless of what you accuse Labour of what about the Tories austerity? Where has that got us. Where was the money saved by that austerity. When Covid hit our debts were as bad as ever.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 13, 2023 19:20:49 GMT
Austerity would have worked if it hadn't been for the Arab spring wars, and the Covid crisis.
By 2017 the economy was in surplus. It would have gone into surplus earlier if it hadn't been for the wars.
You cannot borrow your way out of debt.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 13, 2023 19:44:38 GMT
Austerity would have worked if it hadn't been for the Arab spring wars, and the Covid crisis. By 2017 the economy was in surplus. It would have gone into surplus earlier if it hadn't been for the wars. You cannot borrow your way out of debt. You are forgetting that austerity meant everything was falling to pieces. Not only that but austerity did nothing to reduce public debt and is not responsible for a positive economy. Countries that did not introduce austerity recovered faster.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 13, 2023 20:05:13 GMT
No. Austerity means getting out of a debt spiral. Everything was falling to pieces when Labour were in. And you're ignoring economic effects of the 2011 war as well as money which went down the toilet paying through the nose for EU membership. Do you remember when David Cameron made a big song and dance about refusing to pay £1.7bn extra to the EU? www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/24/david-cameron-refuses-pay-eu-bill-december-deadlineTrying to find a link but I'm pretty sure he quietly caved in. There is a reason why we voted leave.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 20:21:55 GMT
Well of course economists disagree as much as politicians disagree about the best methods of putting right a deficit, or excessive deficit.
My own opinion fits with that of Nobel winning economist Paul Krugman .... that the best way of eradicating deficit is GROWTH, for the simple reason that "The True Measure of Debt and Deficit is as a Percentage of GDP"
Therefore, the more your GDP grows - the deficit as a percentage of GDP automatically shrinks
Everything we have seen and witnessed since 2010 seems to prove Paul Krugman correct, slashing public spending HAS cut off growth, UK growth over the last 13 years can only be described as pathetic, slashing public spending has hampered both recovery and eradicating the deficit.
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Post by andrewbrown on Sept 13, 2023 20:22:42 GMT
No. Austerity means getting out of a debt spiral. Except that it didn't.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 13, 2023 20:26:41 GMT
There's two ways to get out of debt. Cut back or work harder. A window cleaner can sell his ladders to pay off his overdraft, or he can buy a second set and take on a second cleaner. No it wasn't. That's the point. Which war? EU membership was bugger all in GDP terms. No they caved in. Indeed, much f it lead by lies, but we've covered that endlessly.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 13, 2023 20:38:22 GMT
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Post by Bentley on Sept 13, 2023 21:13:26 GMT
Well of course economists disagree as much as politicians disagree about the best methods of putting right a deficit, or excessive deficit. My own opinion fits with that of Nobel winning economist Paul Krugman .... that the best way of eradicating deficit is GROWTH, for the simple reason that "The True Measure of Debt and Deficit is as a Percentage of GDP" Therefore, the more your GDP grows - the deficit as a percentage of GDP automatically shrinks Everything we have seen and witnessed since 2010 seems to prove Paul Krugman correct, slashing public spending HAS cut off growth, UK growth over the last 13 years can only be described as pathetic, slashing public spending has hampered both recovery and eradicating the deficit. That reminds me that my own opinion of mass and energy fits that of Einstein. E=MC2. My opinion that in a right-angled triangle, the square of the hypotenuse side is equal to the sum of squares of the other two sides fits that of Pythagoras too.
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