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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 10:06:57 GMT
They want us to think that nobody can be allowed to stand against a dictator without consequences.
And of course, it is absolutely right to stand up against dictators, to speak truth to power, to call them out, and, if it comes to it, to fight them.
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 6, 2023 10:16:57 GMT
They want us to think that nobody can be allowed to stand against a dictator without consequences. And of course, it is absolutely right to stand up against dictators, to speak truth to power, to call them out, and, if it comes to it, to fight them. All of them or just the ones who go against US interests?
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 10:19:01 GMT
All. Even the Saudis.
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 6, 2023 11:16:33 GMT
''All'' is a big commitment. There are a lot of dictatorships and corrupt governments in the world. Do we take them on one at a time or all at once in some mighty holy war against oppression? What if they have nukes? ''Burn the village to save the village''?
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Post by Orac on Sept 6, 2023 12:09:13 GMT
Obviously taking on most of the planet is not very practical, so the usual solution is to select a short-list targets based on some other criteria - say financial interests.
These financial interests might even conceivably be so narrow, they pivot around one person's bank account. It's all legitimate and part-and-parcel of the war on oppression
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 12:09:45 GMT
Start with diplomacy including sanctions. Stop providing arms to dictators. Stop buying oil / gas / coal from them. If they invade a neighbour to snuff out democracy in a neighbouring democracy, aid that neighbour.
And, reminder: We have nuclear weapons.
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 6, 2023 12:13:13 GMT
Start with diplomacy including sanctions. Stop providing arms to dictators. Stop buying oil / gas / coal from them. If they invade a neighbour to snuff out democracy in a neighbouring democracy, aid that neighbour. And, reminder: We have nuclear weapons. We can only use them in retaliation though by which point we are all screwed.
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Post by Orac on Sept 6, 2023 12:24:12 GMT
There is so much to iron out.
For instance, are places whose democratic leaders are deposed still a democracy after the coup? Does a democracy's mandate extend beyond the people polled?
The world tends to be push and shove with the big guy shoving the hardest. I don't think there is a universally agreeable alternative.
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Post by Hutchyns on Sept 6, 2023 12:42:58 GMT
I wouldn't say this is anywhere near exclusive to dictatorships, all sorts within the political sphere attempt to get people to fear the consequences of not doing what they advocate ....... one example which we've discussed in recent days was Cameron's request to Obama to put the frighteners on the British public by threatening that Britain would be relegated to 'the back of the queue' ..... and of course the whole scheme, which Obama and his team had come over to Britain to contribute to, was aptly dubbed 'Project Fear' .... an almost total concentration on painting a lurid picture of the horrible things that would befall us if we dared vote to ignore our Government's advice not to leave the EU. Did it fail, or did it get 'Remain' closer to winning than it otherwise would have ? ..... whichever, it certainly didn't put politicians off, as we saw when Covid made an appearance ... and the various experts and Psychologists brought in to advise on how best to instill fear into the public, as a means to get them to comply on mass with Government dictats was superbly laid out and explained by Laura Dodswoth in her book. If the British public aren't happy about the vast amounts of their taxes being used to fund one side in a conflict in the part of the world that seems very distant to them, then it's a good dose of personal fear that they need in order to keep them in line ...... 'if Putin beats Ukraine, he'll take on Poland next (not that'll he'd necessarily need to leave Ukraine to do that) and start his military march through Europe ...... there's no end to the territory he's intending to take ...dontcha know that guy is a reincarnation of Hitler !!! ... be afraid ...be very afraid !'The Fear card gets played by regimes the world over, and with Saudi Arabia having swapped sides and joined BRICS ..... they're definitely the bad guys now, as Vinny confirms.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 12:43:08 GMT
Start with diplomacy including sanctions. Stop providing arms to dictators. Stop buying oil / gas / coal from them. If they invade a neighbour to snuff out democracy in a neighbouring democracy, aid that neighbour. And, reminder: We have nuclear weapons. We can only use them in retaliation though by which point we are all screwed. No they're a deterrent.
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 6, 2023 12:48:55 GMT
We can only use them in retaliation though by which point we are all screwed. No they're a deterrent. Only against a direct nuclear attack on the US. America isn't going nuclear winter if Vlad uses tactical nukes in Ukraine.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 12:50:52 GMT
Article 5 NATO. A direct attack on one member country is a direct attack on all. Any radioactive fallout into Poland or any other NATO country? Article 5.
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Post by Orac on Sept 6, 2023 12:55:23 GMT
Article 5 NATO. A direct attack on one member country is a direct attack on all. Article 5 wont matter much in those circumstances. The purpose of article 5 is to deter such attacks. Once something like that happens it's likely every man for himself (90%). Itt's the 10% possibility that it holds that acts as a deterrent. I'm just being realistic...it's a bit dismal to think about.
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 6, 2023 12:55:41 GMT
Article 5 NATO. A direct attack on one member country is a direct attack on all. Any radioactive fallout into Poland or any other NATO country? Article 5. Meaningless scrap of paper when faced with total annihilation.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 6, 2023 13:01:14 GMT
Exactly what Putin wants you to think.
Sow seeds of doubt, mistrust, fear and then he can bully who he wishes without consequences.
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