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Post by steppenwolf on Aug 8, 2023 6:44:22 GMT
I'm beginning to think that there should be a govt enquiry into the safety of Battery powered EVs (BEVs) - and the general question of whether these vehicles are safe. There have been a lot of cases of these batteries catching fire. Many have occurred in e-bikes and e-scooters (usually when charging) and there have also been cases of BEVs catching fire when being charged or spontaneously. But the real problem is that these fires are VERY difficult to put out.
Li-ion batteries are prone to a condition that's called "Thermal runaway". What happens is that a cell overheats (either when charging or discharging or just when it gets too hot for other reasons) and catches on fire. It then sets off the next cell a bit like a chain reaction until the whole battery basically explodes. The fire that's created is extremely dangerous because it burns at 5000 degrees C (as opposed to 1500C for a petrol fire) and because the fire does NOT need oxygen - as most fires do. This means that the usual methods of putting the fire out by denying it oxygen - like water or foam - do NOT work. The battery will basically burn until it's completely burned out and there's very little anyone can do about it.
The other problem is that the fumes from the fire are deadly - containing hydrogen cyanide and products from the burning of cobalt. These fumes kill or cause serious long term injury.
Advice now being given to people charging these batteries is to only used the OEM charger (which will not charge too fast and which cuts out when fully charged) and charge it in a well ventilated place with smoke alarms AND keep an eye on it. Yet the govt's whole strategy with BEVs (which have vast Li-ion batteries weighing up to 500kgm) is to charge them overnight (to avoid overloading the Grid) either in your garage or on the road. WTF!!!
Am I alone in thinking this is absolutely crazy? These things are EXTREMLY dangerous. Also BEVs are basically write-offs when involved in minor accidents because the batteries are so large that the occupy most of the floor pan. Any damage to the battery potentially makes the car unsafe - and the cost of a new battery effectively makes the vehicle an uneconomic repair.
Why is our govt full of fucking imbeciles. We've already been through the diesel debacle where they exchanged a small reduction in CO2 for a vast increase in deadly NO2. Now they've made a mistake that's vastly more serious. But they keep heading down this dangerous cul-de-sac. It doesn't even save any CO2.
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Post by jonksy on Aug 8, 2023 10:03:25 GMT
I'm beginning to think that there should be a govt enquiry into the safety of Battery powered EVs (BEVs) - and the general question of whether these vehicles are safe. There have been a lot of cases of these batteries catching fire. Many have occurred in e-bikes and e-scooters (usually when charging) and there have also been cases of BEVs catching fire when being charged or spontaneously. But the real problem is that these fires are VERY difficult to put out. Li-ion batteries are prone to a condition that's called "Thermal runaway". What happens is that a cell overheats (either when charging or discharging or just when it gets too hot for other reasons) and catches on fire. It then sets off the next cell a bit like a chain reaction until the whole battery basically explodes. The fire that's created is extremely dangerous because it burns at 5000 degrees C (as opposed to 1500C for a petrol fire) and because the fire does NOT need oxygen - as most fires do. This means that the usual methods of putting the fire out by denying it oxygen - like water or foam - do NOT work. The battery will basically burn until it's completely burned out and there's very little anyone can do about it. The other problem is that the fumes from the fire are deadly - containing hydrogen cyanide and products from the burning of cobalt. These fumes kill or cause serious long term injury. Advice now being given to people charging these batteries is to only used the OEM charger (which will not charge too fast and which cuts out when fully charged) and charge it in a well ventilated place with smoke alarms AND keep an eye on it. Yet the govt's whole strategy with BEVs (which have vast Li-ion batteries weighing up to 500kgm) is to charge them overnight (to avoid overloading the Grid) either in your garage or on the road. WTF!!! Am I alone in thinking this is absolutely crazy? These things are EXTREMLY dangerous. Also BEVs are basically write-offs when involved in minor accidents because the batteries are so large that the occupy most of the floor pan. Any damage to the battery potentially makes the car unsafe - and the cost of a new battery effectively makes the vehicle an uneconomic repair. Why is our govt full of fucking imbeciles. We've already been through the diesel debacle where they exchanged a small reduction in CO2 for a vast increase in deadly NO2. Now they've made a mistake that's vastly more serious. But they keep heading down this dangerous cul-de-sac. It doesn't even save any CO2. They are ticking time bombs mate.... |
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Post by steppenwolf on Aug 8, 2023 12:25:24 GMT
I'm just wondering why the Fire Brigades are not lobbying the daft government on this obvious danger. After all, they're the people who'll have to put these fires out - and it seems to be very difficult and very dangerous.
I've never been keen on BEVs because I actually think they make environmental problem worse, but I hadn't realised that were quite so dangerous. And I wonder how long before no one will want to transport BEVs. I know that the Royal Mail won't accept Li-ion batteries greater than 100Wh because they regard them as dangerous. But BEV batteries are up to 100KWh - 1000 times greater.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2023 13:48:40 GMT
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 8, 2023 15:04:50 GMT
If you have an EV be careful where you park it..
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Post by johnofgwent on Aug 9, 2023 0:44:25 GMT
Ok i want to consider this in two ways. Let’s deal with things OTHER than EV’s first. It’s pretty obvious to me that manufacturers of the battery packs and chargers for Li-ion and the Ni-Mh batteries that were their predecessor vary massively and quite simply some charge too fast for their own good end of. The very fact an iPhone gets red hot if plugged into a 20W psu that charges it inside an hour and doesn't if charged with a non iPhone charger that takes five times longer because it only delivers a fifth if the current should speak volumes about likely battery life and risk
As i have said before the risk assessment for the Ajax Fighting Vehicle declares how many deaths are expected as a result of the ‘violent disassembly’ of various batteries. And the MOD approved that document.
With EVs there is a particular risk.
The vehicle design and the battery life projection for my early model Nissan Leaf made it crystal clear projections were based on the assumption it was charged using the supplied 3 pin plug which ran a max of 13A hence 3kw. This would take 8 hours to put 60 miles range on the vehicle.
It was possible to charge at twice that rate using a wall mounted charger. I had one fitted to the house 10 years ago free of charge when i was first looking at buying an EV. But the documents make it clear the high current charging option reduced the battery life. And cost a further £1000 on top of the £26000 OTR price of the Leaf in 2012.
The car i bought for £5000 almost three years ago had nit been fitted with the 7kw Domestic Option which is why after 9000 miles (yes, less than 900 miles a year) the main drive battery still worked as well as it did
The car DID have an ‘industrial’ fast charge socket though, a ‘Chademo??’ Plug that put 80% of 24kwh into it in about 40 minutes. I used this when shopping at LIDL and probably destroyed a part of the battery life doing it.
In short EVs are designed to reduce motoring capability to roughly half the range of the pony and trap my wife’s grandmother was given on her 16th birthday in the 1920’s
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Post by jonksy on Aug 9, 2023 1:08:43 GMT
A friend on mine a roofer dropped a paslode nail gun from a height of over 40 feet onto solid concrete. These nail guns have a litheum battry which ignites a charge of compressed gas to fire nails into thick rafters and timber. Luckily the battery went one way anfter it was dropped and the gas went the opposite way on impact. The battery case cracked and allowed the litheum to come into contact with oxygen and of course was soon blazing away. Apparently paslode a well respected USA company designed their guns that if they receive a high impact the gas canister and battery are ejected in opposite directions. As per usual there are many cheap chinese copies now on the market at half the price of a genuine paslode and I bet they don't have that safety feature.
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Post by johnofgwent on Aug 9, 2023 2:04:27 GMT
A friend on mine a roofer dropped a paslode nail gun from a height of over 40 feet onto solid concrete. These nail guns have a litheum battry which ignites a charge of compressed gas to fire nails into thick rafters and timber. Luckily the battery went one way anfter it was dropped and the gas went the opposite way on impact. The battery case cracked and allowed the litheum to come into contact with oxygen and of course was soon blazing away. Apparently paslode a well respected USA company designed their guns that if they receive a high impact the gas canister and battery are ejected in opposite directions. As per usual there are many cheap chinese copies now on the market at half the price of a genuine paslode and I bet they don't have that safety feature. So the gas is flammable. Right. That sounds an excellent replacement for a molatov cocktail. Exploding batteries and flammable expanding gas propelling a burning chemical fire outwards like a sort of incendiary fragmentation grenade. Oh man where can i get a few of those. |
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Post by jonksy on Aug 9, 2023 5:14:57 GMT
A friend on mine a roofer dropped a paslode nail gun from a height of over 40 feet onto solid concrete. These nail guns have a litheum battry which ignites a charge of compressed gas to fire nails into thick rafters and timber. Luckily the battery went one way anfter it was dropped and the gas went the opposite way on impact. The battery case cracked and allowed the litheum to come into contact with oxygen and of course was soon blazing away. Apparently paslode a well respected USA company designed their guns that if they receive a high impact the gas canister and battery are ejected in opposite directions. As per usual there are many cheap chinese copies now on the market at half the price of a genuine paslode and I bet they don't have that safety feature. So the gas is flammable. Right. That sounds an excellent replacement for a molatov cocktail. Exploding batteries and flammable expanding gas propelling a burning chemical fire outwards like a sort of incendiary fragmentation grenade. Oh man where can i get a few of those. You can get the gas from Your local Toolstations or Screwfix. And a good source for cheap lithiums is throw away vapes or those cheapy garden solar lights...
Below is a link to them on Ebay...
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Post by steppenwolf on Aug 9, 2023 6:29:29 GMT
It seems to me we're sleep-walking into another fiasco like the diesel one. I suspect that the govt know that li-ion batteries aren't safe and that if we have millions of them on the roads there will be fires all over the place. At the moment there are about 800,000 BEVs on our roads as against 40 million conventional cars. Could it be that, just as with the diesel, they're thinking that technology will come to their rescue in the form of solid state batteries? Maybe, but they're still decades away (as they always seem to be).
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Post by Vinny on Aug 10, 2023 11:28:04 GMT
Some solid state batteries do contain lithium, but not the flawed electrolyte which can internally short circuit and go into thermal runaway. If those replace lithium ion, the price will still be high, but so will safety.
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