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Post by sandypine on Jul 13, 2023 21:41:31 GMT
How do our morals arise and when they become 'our morals' are they as has arisen from the public or are they thrust upon the public from above. I would think the moral acceptance of gay relationships and especially gay marriage is not as universal with the public as 'our moral guardians' would have us believe. There is a difference between toleration of something and finding it morally acceptable. Most morals arise out of previous bad situations or conflicts. They are put in place to prevent them reoccurring. By example; its considered immoral to have sex with an underage girl and most would consider 15 years to be the limit. Why? Because historically when such young girls had babies they were too immature to look after them. As for gay marriage, there will always be those who object but the vast majority believe they have as much right to happiness as straight people.
Around three quarters (73%) of British adults think gay people should be allowed to get married to each other while a quarter (24%) do not want to allow gay marriage according to a new Ipsos poll for Freedom to MarryDepends on what and how you ask. Strong support is 50% with about 24% tending to support. Not quite a moral certainty. I would agree morals tend to arise from some form of conflict or social understanding however your example of a young girl is a tricky one as morality moves immediately she turns 16 and then overall morality is affected by the age of the other person and/or their position with respect to the girl. So the law has to define the moral parameters. My point is morality is not set in stone as it depends on circumstances and in many instances the outlook of the people involved and the onlookers. Morals should be about protection of individuals within society from acts or outlooks that are held to be immoral. In that respect the whole thing is a bit of a dog's dinner. It is easy as regards murder or physical assault the morality is generally quite clear, once we move into other areas morality is more conjectural. Is it now immoral to object to gay marriage or is it just the acceptance of a democratic process. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 14, 2023 6:29:25 GMT
We shouldn't overlook the role of the law in defining current standards of morality. What is legal tends to be considered as moral - at least by moral arbiters in the opinion-forming class if not the public as a whole - while what is illegal tends to be considered as immoral.
A classic instance is the de-criminalisation of homosexuality in 1967 when lawmakers (i.e. Parliament) were considerably in front of public opinion on the question. The same for the abolition of capital punishment and, probably, the legalisation of abortion.
With regard to the present topic (as well as immigration in general) much of the present law and hence 'moral standards' is the result of case law, that is law/morality made by an activist judiciary and legal profession rather than politicians.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 14, 2023 6:33:13 GMT
That's a fair answer Dan. Your view of the world is that the perfect system for such people is to leave the responsibility entirely with one country who happens to be nearest to the conflict area, to treat the people affected as badly as possible and to leave them (if I read you correctly) dependent on that state for basic living needs. Anyone agree with Dan? i would add to Dan’s point that the entire EU should assist in funding such measures and i would point out that Greece is as much a signatory to the EU standards on Human Rights as every other and thus your insinuations of mistreatment seem less than fair. Contrary to the opinion of those to the left of Corbyn, we owe these people nothing. Least if all the ‘right’ to turn our country into an even bigger shithole than it has become |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 14, 2023 21:29:23 GMT
Most morals arise out of previous bad situations or conflicts. They are put in place to prevent them reoccurring. By example; its considered immoral to have sex with an underage girl and most would consider 15 years to be the limit. Why? Because historically when such young girls had babies they were too immature to look after them. As for gay marriage, there will always be those who object but the vast majority believe they have as much right to happiness as straight people.
Around three quarters (73%) of British adults think gay people should be allowed to get married to each other while a quarter (24%) do not want to allow gay marriage according to a new Ipsos poll for Freedom to MarrySounds more positive than negative. Indeed, you add here just another moral. Not really. The morals aren't flexible, its just that they agree teenage incursion is more understandable than adult ones. . I would say its frowned upon so in a way immoral. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 14, 2023 21:44:28 GMT
Sounds more positive than negative. Indeed, you add here just another moral. Not really. The morals aren't flexible, its just that they agree teenage incursion is more understandable than adult ones. . I would say its frowned upon so in a way immoral. I agree it is more positive than negative but people prefer something positive as a general rule and much prefer to say yes. On your last point are you saying it is immoral to object to gay marriage? Which raises an interesting question as regards should religions be guides of morals. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 14, 2023 21:55:09 GMT
I agree it is more positive than negative but people prefer something positive as a general rule and much prefer to say yes. On your last point are you saying it is immoral to object to gay marriage? Which raises an interesting question as regards should religions be guides of morals. Why are you keen to cast doubt on approval of gay marriage? And no, I think religion has had its day. I thank it for bringing us where we are today but respectfully suggest its time to retire. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 14, 2023 22:55:43 GMT
I agree it is more positive than negative but people prefer something positive as a general rule and much prefer to say yes. On your last point are you saying it is immoral to object to gay marriage? Which raises an interesting question as regards should religions be guides of morals. Not with their history of abuse and intolerance. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 15, 2023 11:50:12 GMT
I agree it is more positive than negative but people prefer something positive as a general rule and much prefer to say yes. On your last point are you saying it is immoral to object to gay marriage? Which raises an interesting question as regards should religions be guides of morals. Why are you keen to cast doubt on approval of gay marriage? And no, I think religion has had its day. I thank it for bringing us where we are today but respectfully suggest its time to retire. I am not casting doubt on approval I am asking if not supporting gay marriage is immoral. However as regards religion many people, and in terms of the world it is certainly a majority, use religion, its teachings its teachers and its literature as a definitive guide to the morals as to be practised by themselves and to be imposed upon any society within which they hold sway. Sometimes they can be very few in number but have the moral certainty of their divinely guided beliefs. Other cult like groups could also be bracketed here like JSO who believe they hold the moral high ground to impose on the rest of us what they hold to be the only moral approach to save future generations. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 15, 2023 12:03:13 GMT
Why are you keen to cast doubt on approval of gay marriage? And no, I think religion has had its day. I thank it for bringing us where we are today but respectfully suggest its time to retire. I am not casting doubt on approval I am asking if not supporting gay marriage is immoral. However as regards religion many people, and in terms of the world it is certainly a majority, use religion, its teachings its teachers and its literature as a definitive guide to the morals as to be practised by themselves and to be imposed upon any society within which they hold sway. Sometimes they can be very few in number but have the moral certainty of their divinely guided beliefs. Other cult like groups could also be bracketed here like JSO who believe they hold the moral high ground to impose on the rest of us what they hold to be the only moral approach to save future generations. I would say trying to prevent gay marriage is now immoral. Approval isn't covered by morals. There will always be religious zealots and extremists, sometimes they impose their beliefs on others. I would not consider these people to be moral bastions. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 15, 2023 12:27:23 GMT
I am not casting doubt on approval I am asking if not supporting gay marriage is immoral. However as regards religion many people, and in terms of the world it is certainly a majority, use religion, its teachings its teachers and its literature as a definitive guide to the morals as to be practised by themselves and to be imposed upon any society within which they hold sway. Sometimes they can be very few in number but have the moral certainty of their divinely guided beliefs. Other cult like groups could also be bracketed here like JSO who believe they hold the moral high ground to impose on the rest of us what they hold to be the only moral approach to save future generations. I would say trying to prevent gay marriage is now immoral. Approval isn't covered by morals. There will always be religious zealots and extremists, sometimes they impose their beliefs on others. I would not consider these people to be moral bastions. You seem to be accepting the point that once something becomes law then that places it into the current moral code and opposing, or even not supporting, the law becomes an immoral act or viewpoint. This places the anti abortion brigade as immoral for trying to change the law or the age of consent is 16 is now the moral position and trying to lower it would be immoral. It is legal to present sex education to four year olds and it would now be immoral to try and raise that age. You may not consider these people to be moral bastions the problem is they believe they are. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 15, 2023 13:01:44 GMT
Islam has a very intolerant view on homosexuality .
With that in mind should we allow Muslims to migrate to the UK?
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Post by zanygame on Jul 15, 2023 13:13:53 GMT
I would say trying to prevent gay marriage is now immoral. Approval isn't covered by morals. There will always be religious zealots and extremists, sometimes they impose their beliefs on others. I would not consider these people to be moral bastions. Don't know where you got that idea from. I have never mentioned the law. The law and morality are two entirely different things. If pressed I would say the law changed on gay marriage because the moral position had changed. As for not supporting being immoral, I specifically said the opposite. You could not support the idea that you should not queue jump, you would be breaking no law but the morals of the country would frown upon you and the people holding those morals might even turn on you. Thus you could disapprove of gay marriage, but if you turned up at a gay marriage and tried to disrupt it you would find yourself against the crowd rather than the law. No it doesn't, as I say law a morality are not the same. Often the law lags behind moral attitude. Also unlike the law, two different moral attitudes can be held by different groups in the same community. What matters with morals is which group is in ascendance. Of course they do, but you only need to take notice if they represent a sizeable majority. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 15, 2023 13:15:25 GMT
Islam has a very intolerant view on homosexuality . With that in mind should we allow Muslims to migrate to the UK? So long as they accept the morals of the country they come to. As I have said you are allowed to have different views, just not impose them on the moral majority. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 15, 2023 13:26:22 GMT
Islam has a very intolerant view on homosexuality . With that in mind should we allow Muslims to migrate to the UK? So long as they accept the morals of the country they come to. As I have said you are allowed to have different views, just not impose them on the moral majority. But isn't that what happened with 'gay' marriage? The majority of people were ambivalent at best if not directly opposed but then an activist minority persuaded the political elite to change the law and now it would be considered immoral to attempt to repeal it. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 15, 2023 13:30:28 GMT
Islam has a very intolerant view on homosexuality . With that in mind should we allow Muslims to migrate to the UK? So long as they accept the morals of the country they come to. As I have said you are allowed to have different views, just not impose them on the moral majority. They belong to a cult that claims homosexual acts are a sin and an insult to God. Do you propose,that they should renounce Islam before they can enter ? Otherwise would you be happy with an self confessed neo Nazi allowed to live the UK if he keeps his mouth shut about the Jews? |
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