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Post by zanygame on Jul 13, 2023 15:51:42 GMT
I have a friend who is a refugee from Ukraine who has been granted asylum. Given the indiscriminate bombing of her country, I'd be very surprised if she has a home to go back to. Hear hear Vinny. What most people complain about with the boats arriving on our shores is not refugees fleeing war but economic migrants wanting gto enjoy what we have fought so hard for. I heard an interview on Radio 4 yesterday with child (15 years) who had arrived in the UK on a dinghy. His reason for leaving his home in Ghana was that his mum and dad wanted him to go to a school he hated. WTF  |
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Post by Orac on Jul 13, 2023 16:39:58 GMT
I think this question is close to the heart argument. Is a community immoral for paying attention to its own concerns and keeping its own affairs in order even though a large section of the world is disastrously badly run? Does such a society have a moral duty to significantly allow its territory to be taken to help people in that disaster? If the answer is Yes, you have, in practical terms, disallowed any functioning civilisation on moral grounds. Its not so simple to ignore the rest of the planet and its people. That's why we engage with them, not for some altruistic reasons. Why do you think the Nato countries are so successful? I didn't suggest we ignore the rest of the world, just that handing over our territory is not viable or sensible. I find it distinctly peculiar that one course which would be idiotic, self defeating and counter-productive, is the one course of action you insist on. Nato would not, of course, exist, if the nations that formed it took your advice on this matter. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 13, 2023 16:57:29 GMT
We need to put them in holding camps, I'm not saying nasty places yet need to be secure and men and women separated with a different section for families. This will require guards to make it effective.
They should not be free to walk our streets until checks have been done.
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Post by zanygame on Jul 13, 2023 17:36:55 GMT
Its not so simple to ignore the rest of the planet and its people. That's why we engage with them, not for some altruistic reasons. Why do you think the Nato countries are so successful? I didn't suggest we ignore the rest of the world, just that handing over our territory is not viable or sensible. I find it distinctly peculiar that one course which would be idiotic, self defeating and counter-productive, is the one course of action you insist on. Nato would not, of course, exist, if the nations that formed it took your advice on this matter. I have no idea what course you have now imagined for me. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 13, 2023 17:37:57 GMT
We need to put them in holding camps, I'm not saying nasty places yet need to be secure and men and women separated with a different section for families. This will require guards to make it effective. They should not be free to walk our streets until checks have been done. So long as the checks take weeks rather than years. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 13, 2023 17:46:50 GMT
We need to put them in holding camps, I'm not saying nasty places yet need to be secure and men and women separated with a different section for families. This will require guards to make it effective. They should not be free to walk our streets until checks have been done. It would be difficult to do that within the law. Seeking asylum is not illegal so you can't "detain" them as such. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 13, 2023 17:50:29 GMT
Entering illegally, getting cash in hand work and not seeking asylum on the other hand is grounds for deportation and a lot do it, only seeking asylum when they get caught.
Tolerance of such people is cowardice.
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Post by bancroft on Jul 13, 2023 17:56:49 GMT
We need to put them in holding camps, I'm not saying nasty places yet need to be secure and men and women separated with a different section for families. This will require guards to make it effective. They should not be free to walk our streets until checks have been done. It would be difficult to do that within the law. Seeking asylum is not illegal so you can't "detain" them as such. Depends on your point of view coming here after coming through Europe and not by legal means suggests they need to be detained. If this means the law needs changing I would concur that it needs to happen otherwise a lot of foreign criminals are left free to roam and commit crime. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 13, 2023 18:00:08 GMT
We need to put them in holding camps, I'm not saying nasty places yet need to be secure and men and women separated with a different section for families. This will require guards to make it effective. They should not be free to walk our streets until checks have been done. It would be difficult to do that within the law. Seeking asylum is not illegal so you can't "detain" them as such. Indeed the law would need reforming, but looking at the modern behaviours it seems overdue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 18:22:32 GMT
Its not so simple to ignore the rest of the planet and its people. That's why we engage with them, not for some altruistic reasons. Why do you think the Nato countries are so successful? I didn't suggest we ignore the rest of the world, just that handing over our territory is not viable or sensible. I find it distinctly peculiar that one course which would be idiotic, self defeating and counter-productive, is the one course of action you insist on. Nato would not, of course, exist, if the nations that formed it took your advice on this matter. None of these people would lift a finger to help anyone else. They demand everyone else do so, which is why they never see the result of their insanity on their own doorstep. The fakery is just hard to stomach. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 13, 2023 19:21:15 GMT
Well sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you are not. In WW1 from Belgium alone we had 250,000 refugees in the space of a few months. Some went to France but very few other countries took any. In WW2 the UK had close on 100,000 refugees during the 30s and had exiled armies and governments as well as many thousands of refugees from the Continent during the early 40s. We were overwhelmed to the detriment of all our citizens. Fair shares for others to help was next to nothing apart from the US and some commonwealth countries. Now we are thousands of miles away and we have to take a 'fair share'. In the 30s and 40s most displaced Jews wanted to go to Palestine but the Arabs opposed that move at every turn. We have done our bit time and again. so if all these people came to us, what happened when the war ended. Genuine question because i’ve no idea Most of the Belgians went home as did most others. We had a lot of stayers from Poles and German and Italian POWs. My local village in central Scotland had about a dozen Polish men, two Germans and two Italians. The most famous German POW stayer was Bert Trautman who played for Man City as goalkeeper. Many of the Jews passed through to the USA although Glasgow and several other cities had large Jewish Communities but in the main I think those communities arose from the Jewish exodus from Russia in the late 19th century. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 13, 2023 19:32:27 GMT
"Very few would agree with you that we should not provide sanctuary and a new life to deserving cases." [emphasis added]
Because I saw the reaction to those suffering in the Ukraine, I see the sympathy for those suffering in Syria.
So how do you know they woud not agree? Do you see placards with go home Ukrainians anywhere?
Morals are not a fashion or a lifestyle choice etc. They are written hard into our society and change very slowly. Gender change identity is not a moral duty, nor was it ever accepted by society as a whole.
It took decades if not centuries to get same sex relationships morally acceptable, same sex marriage took decades more.
How do our morals arise and when they become 'our morals' are they as has arisen from the public or are they thrust upon the public from above. I would think the moral acceptance of gay relationships and especially gay marriage is not as universal with the public as 'our moral guardians' would have us believe. There is a difference between toleration of something and finding it morally acceptable. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 13, 2023 19:38:33 GMT
so if all these people came to us, what happened when the war ended. Genuine question because i’ve no idea Most of the Belgians went home as did most others. We had a lot of stayers from Poles and German and Italian POWs. My local village in central Scotland had about a dozen Polish men, two Germans and two Italians. The most famous German POW stayer was Bert Trautman who played for Man City as goalkeeper. Many of the Jews passed through to the USA although Glasgow and several other cities had large Jewish Communities but in the main I think those communities arose from the Jewish exodus from Russia in the late 19th century. thanks for that. I presume you know the story of internees and prisoners of war near here … there is - or at least was a church / cultural conference centre near Alfreton in Derbyshire where i had the pleasure of numerous stays in my lay preaching days. One room had a particularly squeaky floor and i mentioned it to the centre manager who burst out laughing and told me the reason. Swanwick was a POW camp in WW2 and the only airman to bother to try to escape - his story is told in a 50’s ?? B&W film ‘the one who got away’ escaped from my room. Tge floor boards were taken up when the army sold the place to the church and they found DOZENS of radios, forged ration books, etc. Nearer my neck of the woods camps in mid wales held the internees Churchill spoke of at the end of his ‘fight on the beaches’ speech. Lots of italians were interned in the area both POWs and civiluan detainees m. After it all ended many didn't go home - many found their hones in this country bombed flat by hitler and the POWs found their homes bombed flat by us. The 50’s saw a plentiful supply of coffee bars fish and chip shops and ice cream parlours opened by these people but of course their country and ours had suffered massive depletion of male citizens killed in the conflict fo a few POWs hardly mattered. In North Wales a substantial polish enclave came about, again refugees of war who probably had nothing to go back to. The issue now if course is we still have incoming, but there hasn’t been a decent armageddon for a while. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 13, 2023 19:47:17 GMT
Most of the Belgians went home as did most others. We had a lot of stayers from Poles and German and Italian POWs. My local village in central Scotland had about a dozen Polish men, two Germans and two Italians. The most famous German POW stayer was Bert Trautman who played for Man City as goalkeeper. Many of the Jews passed through to the USA although Glasgow and several other cities had large Jewish Communities but in the main I think those communities arose from the Jewish exodus from Russia in the late 19th century. thanks for that. I presume you know the story of internees and prisoners of war near here … there is - or at least was a church / cultural conference centre near Alfreton in Derbyshire where i had the pleasure of numerous stays in my lay preaching days. One room had a particularly squeaky floor and i mentioned it to the centre manager who burst out laughing and told me the reason. Swanwick was a POW camp in WW2 and the only airman to bother to try to escape - his story is told in a 50’s ?? B&W film ‘the one who got away’ escaped from my room. Tge floor boards were taken up when the army sold the place to the church and they found DOZENS of radios, forged ration books, etc. Nearer my neck of the woods camps in mid wales held the internees Churchill spoke of at the end of his ‘fight on the beaches’ speech. Lots of italians were interned in the area both POWs and civiluan detainees m. After it all ended many didn't go home - many found their hones in this country bombed flat by hitler and the POWs found their homes bombed flat by us. The 50’s saw a plentiful supply of coffee bars fish and chip shops and ice cream parlours opened by these people but of course their country and ours had suffered massive depletion of male citizens killed in the conflict fo a few POWs hardly mattered. In North Wales a substantial polish enclave came about, again refugees of war who probably had nothing to go back to. The issue now if course is we still have incoming, but there hasn’t been a decent armageddon for a while. Yes I have watched the Hardy Kruger film. It is worth noting he escaped from Canada to the US not from the UK. It is tricky to know the exact roots of peoples as Scotland had a big Italian community before the war and many Italians still come to Scotland. In Italy there are several Celtic supporters clubs. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 13, 2023 20:13:31 GMT
How do our morals arise and when they become 'our morals' are they as has arisen from the public or are they thrust upon the public from above. I would think the moral acceptance of gay relationships and especially gay marriage is not as universal with the public as 'our moral guardians' would have us believe. There is a difference between toleration of something and finding it morally acceptable. Most morals arise out of previous bad situations or conflicts. They are put in place to prevent them reoccurring. By example; its considered immoral to have sex with an underage girl and most would consider 15 years to be the limit. Why? Because historically when such young girls had babies they were too immature to look after them. As for gay marriage, there will always be those who object but the vast majority believe they have as much right to happiness as straight people.
Around three quarters (73%) of British adults think gay people should be allowed to get married to each other while a quarter (24%) do not want to allow gay marriage according to a new Ipsos poll for Freedom to Marry |
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