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Post by Ripley on Jul 11, 2023 21:42:54 GMT
Biden isn't a member of the EU himself so he has no right to tell the EU who to admit. Urgh, just defended the EU. Biden and Erdogan go back a long way, and there is no love lost between them. Biden isn't telling the EU to admit Turkey. Erdogan has very few friends left in Washington these days, and Biden's government is putting some pressure on Turkey over Greece and Cyprus. Greece is of more strategic importance to the US.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 11, 2023 21:48:07 GMT
Why does NATO need Turkey? Turkey controls access to the Black Sea. Think about it.
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Post by Tinculin on Jul 12, 2023 5:28:52 GMT
All of Scandinavia in NATO is huge.
Sure, Erdrogan boxed clever & I can’t really blame him tbh.
Sweden and Finland joining NATO will be remembered as Putin’s folly.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 7:35:27 GMT
Why does NATO need Turkey? Turkey controls access to the Black Sea. Think about it. That's not it. You think again.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 12, 2023 9:04:12 GMT
The US has always been a strong advocate for Turkey's accession to the EU. In the past it could rely on the poodle-like support of the UK, historically the strongest proponent for Turkish membership but that no longer applies. Nobody in the EU as presently constituted supports Turkish membership so Biden is pissing into the wind if that's what he's trying to promote. Turkey's chances of joining went from slim to zero once Britain left the EU. With the UK gone why would Turkey support Sweden joining NATO unless some pressure behind the scenes was being applied. I refer to Biden but he is long past being the prime mover in the policies that seem to come from an inner circle and Turkey wrapped in the arms of the EU and NATO would be a distinct advantage to the US. What is happening behind the scenes and what the real promises herald we can only guess at. The diplomatic groundwork is underway to prepare the public but it seems as though decisions on the programme have been made now all that is needed is the horsetrading.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 9:26:24 GMT
This is one of the reasons why I consider NATO to be an anachronism and well past its sell-by date. It needs to disbanded and replaced by a EUTO sans the USA (and Turkey).
Stopping the USA from meddling in European affairs would be one of the quickest ways to bring the Ukraine conflict to a close.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 12, 2023 9:59:40 GMT
The North Atlantic Treaty of 1949 contains this text: And also this: www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htmBefore Putin's aggression I would have agreed that a debate on the continuation of NATO would be necessary. But now, I wager, if the members of NATO were given referendums as to whether their countries should remain members, there would be an overwhelming majority for the continuation of NATO. It has kept the peace since 1949. No NATO member has ever been invaded by another military power since they joined. The EU on the other hand, fucking sucks.
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Post by Tinculin on Jul 12, 2023 12:12:50 GMT
I agree, before last year, NATO was looked upon by many as a legacy of WW2 and the cold war.
However, Putin's unprovoked aggression and use of his military has been a sharp reminder to anyone with a Brain, that it only takes 1 militaristic nation to destabilize Europe.
Let's face it, without the USA, there is nothing stopping Russia steam rolling there way back into Eastern Europe and Putin reliving his fantasy of reunifying the USSR.
With the USA, that's never going to happen.
Putin got greedy with Ukraine, and while I still believe Russia will gain some territory out of this conflict (even though I think it's an outrage they will), it will come at such a high price that will render any hope of Putin reforming the USSR in his lifetime, impossible.
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Post by Handyman on Jul 12, 2023 12:20:14 GMT
The Ukrainians were asked a few years ago if they wanted to join NATO, but the people voted against it, perhaps if they had voted yes Putin may have thought twice about invading the Ukraine, if the Ukrainians win I don't know if they hold a vote on it again, I think they will be to busy rebuilding, but if they did vote yes Erdogan may well block their application and ask for something in return, such as EU Membership I think you can safely bet on that. But what would motivate the EU, most of whom are NATO members, too, to admit Turkey in return for not vetoing Ukraine's NATO membership? Is it not, in a way, beneficial to the rest of NATO not to admit Ukraine, when any skirmishes with Russia could drag all NATO members into a conflict? If the Ukrainians do want to join NATO at some point , it will not be a quick process and will only happen if all current members of NATO actually agree , I think not all will agree due to the the rhetoric from Russia, Putin and some in the Kremlin are unpredictable nutterS.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 12:23:55 GMT
Unprovoked?
You don't think NATO's US-inspired sabre-rattlings along Russia's western borders over the past ten years or so may have been a factor in stoking up Russian belligerence? Or that years-long mutterings about extending NATO even further east might have something to do with it?
No to both?
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Post by Vinny on Jul 12, 2023 12:41:11 GMT
The only ONLY reason NATO expanded, is because of Putin's aggressive warmongering. The world saw what he did to Chechnya and to Georgia, and whilst he was allowed to get away with it, many a country in Eastern Europe sensibly joined NATO to prevent it happening to them, which it would have, if it weren't for the North Atlantic Treaty.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 13:01:33 GMT
The best and most obvious as well as the safest option for the ex-Soviet satellites along its western border was not to switch from one armed camp to another but to create a non-militarised buffer zone between Russia and Western Europe, with both NATO and Russia becoming guarantors for their security.
But that would not be congruent with the US strategy of encirclement which is still in effect more than seventy years after the Truman Doctrine so the populations of these unfortunate countries were never offered the one option that was in their best interests.
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Post by Ripley on Jul 12, 2023 14:14:53 GMT
The US has always been a strong advocate for Turkey's accession to the EU. In the past it could rely on the poodle-like support of the UK, historically the strongest proponent for Turkish membership but that no longer applies. Nobody in the EU as presently constituted supports Turkish membership so Biden is pissing into the wind if that's what he's trying to promote. Turkey's chances of joining went from slim to zero once Britain left the EU. With the UK gone why would Turkey support Sweden joining NATO unless some pressure behind the scenes was being applied. I refer to Biden but he is long past being the prime mover in the policies that seem to come from an inner circle and Turkey wrapped in the arms of the EU and NATO would be a distinct advantage to the US. What is happening behind the scenes and what the real promises herald we can only guess at. The diplomatic groundwork is underway to prepare the public but it seems as though decisions on the programme have been made now all that is needed is the horsetrading. Erdogan is an opportunist who realises he can profit from the fact that his vote is needed to bring Sweden into NATO. He has wanted American F-16s for a long time and now he has finally managed to extort them from Biden. He and Biden have known one another for a long time and there is no love lost between them and no trust between them. I doubt Biden has any interest in helping Erdogan with his EU membership aspirations, and he has no power to do so anyway. Erdogan still blames the US for the attempted coup in 2016. On a visit to Turkey a few years ago, a few Turks told me that if the EU won't let them in (France and Germany were very opposed to admitting Turkey), they might turn to the East rather than the West.
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Post by bancroft on Jul 12, 2023 14:53:39 GMT
So why is the US so keen on Turkey joining the EU? Thoughts? Payment for Turkey dropping its block to Sweden joining NATO.
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Post by Tinculin on Jul 12, 2023 16:22:11 GMT
Unprovoked? You don't think NATO's US-inspired sabre-rattlings along Russia's western borders over the past ten years or so may have been a factor in stoking up Russian belligerence? Or that years-long mutterings about extending NATO even further east might have something to do with it? No to both? Well, if it was truley about that and Putin has a problem with NATO, he should be declaring war on NATO. However, the last time I checked, nation states were free to determine who their friends were. When Putin siezed Crimea from Ukraine, what did he expect? people to wave the flag and sing about the glorious Russian Empire, lol? However, we all know it has zero to do with that, and everything to do with Putin's imperialist desire to restore the USSR, despite Russia's international promise to never make war on Ukraine after Ukraine returned Russia's nuclear arsenal following it's independence. Here is a lesson on sovereignty and what it means. study.com/academy/lesson/sovereign-government-definition-lesson-quiz.html#:~:text=What%20does%20it%20mean%20to,nation%20or%20control%20its%20territory.
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