|
Post by Vinny on Jul 4, 2023 17:00:22 GMT
Even in 2001 Labour had haemorrhaged millions of votes. Brexit is only part of why Labour are in opposition.
Corbyn at his worst got more votes than Blair after 1 term.
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Jul 4, 2023 17:03:06 GMT
I'm not posing as a Nazi lookalike. You don't need to.
|
|
|
Post by patman post on Jul 4, 2023 17:31:21 GMT
They've been in opposition 13 years for multiple reasons. It's not just Brexit. Lets see if their supporters know why. Whatever Labour have or haven't learned, they're way ahead in the polls...:
At the end of June 2023, the Labour Party are once again showing signs of increasing their poll lead over the Conservatives, following several months in which the polls have been largely flat-lining.
The overall polling averages extrapolated in the 3 weeks to June 25 place Labour on 44.6%, the Conservatives on 27.8%, and the Liberal Democrats on 11.2%.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 19:01:34 GMT
They've been in opposition 13 years for multiple reasons. It's not just Brexit. Lets see if their supporters know why. Whatever Labour have or haven't learned, they're way ahead in the polls...:
At the end of June 2023, the Labour Party are once again showing signs of increasing their poll lead over the Conservatives, following several months in which the polls have been largely flat-lining.
The overall polling averages extrapolated in the 3 weeks to June 25 place Labour on 44.6%, the Conservatives on 27.8%, and the Liberal Democrats on 11.2%.
This is due to a combination of the utter and obvious appallingness of the Tories, and our first past the post voting system. People get so desperate to remove the ruling party at almost any cost that they will vote for anything that might achieve that, however inadequate they think it is. Anything is better than what we have now tends to be the thinking whilst people know their votes probably wont count unless they vote for the main challenger based on the results last time. Under such circumstances the other parties all gain support where they are the strongest contender to the Tories which works heavily in Labours favour. It nevertheless remains the case that most of their poll lead is entirely due to anti-Tory feelings and not widespread enthusiasm for Labour, and is therefore built on foundations of sand. It might just be enough to carry Labour over the line, but public support for Labour in office will quickly collapse once the Tories are gone and Labour offers little that is radically different but will indulge in an excess of top down control freakery as they are already doing inside their own party
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 19:03:35 GMT
I'm not posing as a Nazi lookalike. You don't need to. Says the man who supported the white racist regime of Ian Smith in Rhodesia and who thinks there are too many Jews in the legal profession.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 19:24:18 GMT
Even in 2001 Labour had haemorrhaged millions of votes. Brexit is only part of why Labour are in opposition. Corbyn at his worst got more votes than Blair after 1 term. Labour's haemorrhaging of votes since 1997 is a reflection of its haemorrhaging of working class Labour voters. The effects of this were masked for a time by the Tories losing voters too, and by the rise of UKIP as a challenger for right wing votes. That Corbyn won more votes in 2017 than at any time since 1997, and gained seats for the first and only time since then is conveniently forgotten by the pundits. That even in 2019 Labour under Corbyn gained more votes than Blair's Labour got in 2005, and actually had the largest vote share amongst working age people is also conveniently forgotten. What actually happened was that significant numbers of those who would formerly have been natural Labour supporters but who had given up in despair - particularly younger age groups and some of the working classes - came back. I know this was reflected inside the party by an influx of younger and also working class members, being one myself. But we were always treated almost as an enemy within, as class enemies of the middle class careerist (they called it aspirational) Blairites who infested the party at every level. Corbyn's Labour seemed like a breath of fresh air to many of the millions the establishment chose to forget. Thats why he bucked the trend of decline for a time. But the tide was always against him on Brexit with the right wing vote uniting once more behind the Tories. And too many working class voters had already been irretrievably lost. It is worth noting that there was very little reversion to Labour amongst the young and the working classes in Scotland though. The SNP had already stolen the crown of genuine radicalism which Labour had discarded. So whilst south of the border young idealists and working class radicals were in some measure inspired by Corbyn's Labour - the 2017 policies were hugely popular when people were asked about them in polling - north of the border they stayed solidly behind the SNP.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 20:41:53 GMT
The Conservatives managed to scrape to victory in 2010, and would not have been able to govern without the Lib Dems.
The 2010 general election was won on a lie ... that the world wide credit crisis and recession that followed was all Labours fault, which of course it was not.
People could not see the reality, including the fact that when the 2010 election took place, Britain was well out of recession and growth had returned and was accelerating.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Jul 4, 2023 20:59:38 GMT
The Conservatives managed to scrape to victory in 2010, and would not have been able to govern without the Lib Dems. The 2010 general election was won on a lie ... that the world wide credit crisis and recession that followed was all Labours fault, which of course it was not. People could not see the reality, including the fact that when the 2010 election took place, Britain was well out of recession and growth had returned and was accelerating. Well there couldn't have been that much growth if people couldnt see it...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 22:09:56 GMT
Says the man who supported the white racist regime of Ian Smith in Rhodesia and who thinks there are too many Jews in the legal profession. Says the man who reports people to Montegriffo over far far less.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 23:19:27 GMT
No, woke is thinking Eddie Izzard is a woman. The knockers are the only qualifications he will ever need.
Sorry, it should have come with an explicit warning. Maybe the forum should have spoiler quotes.
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2023 8:42:53 GMT
Even in 2001 Labour had haemorrhaged millions of votes. Brexit is only part of why Labour are in opposition. Corbyn at his worst got more votes than Blair after 1 term. Labour's haemorrhaging of votes since 1997 is a reflection of its haemorrhaging of working class Labour voters. The effects of this were masked for a time by the Tories losing voters too, and by the rise of UKIP as a challenger for right wing votes. That Corbyn won more votes in 2017 than at any time since 1997, and gained seats for the first and only time since then is conveniently forgotten by the pundits. That even in 2019 Labour under Corbyn gained more votes than Blair's Labour got in 2005, and actually had the largest vote share amongst working age people is also conveniently forgotten. What actually happened was that significant numbers of those who would formerly have been natural Labour supporters but who had given up in despair - particularly younger age groups and some of the working classes - came back. I know this was reflected inside the party by an influx of younger and also working class members, being one myself. But we were always treated almost as an enemy within, as class enemies of the middle class careerist (they called it aspirational) Blairites who infested the party at every level. Corbyn's Labour seemed like a breath of fresh air to many of the millions the establishment chose to forget. Thats why he bucked the trend of decline for a time. But the tide was always against him on Brexit with the right wing vote uniting once more behind the Tories. And too many working class voters had already been irretrievably lost. It is worth noting that there was very little reversion to Labour amongst the young and the working classes in Scotland though. The SNP had already stolen the crown of genuine radicalism which Labour had discarded. So whilst south of the border young idealists and working class radicals were in some measure inspired by Corbyn's Labour - the 2017 policies were hugely popular when people were asked about them in polling - north of the border they stayed solidly behind the SNP. In 2001 UKIP were not a right wing party at all, they were centrist, it was only after the election of Nigel Farage as leader in 2006 that UKIP started moving to the right, and even then, all he did was endorse an Australian style points system and a re-introduction of Grammar Schools, not exactly the Nazism the far left accused them of being. What is very right wing is to endorse economic Darwinism, which is what we had from 1973-2020 and it is rather bizarre that the far left support membership of an unreformed and dangerous economic Darwinist EU. I mean why would anyone want wage compression, social deprivation, cost of living problems and such like? Membership of the EU was disastrous. Labour alienated their grassroots who were suffering from these effects. And when Labour's grass roots started complaining, Labour called them "bigots". Under Blair Labour moved to the centre right. What's the point of a centre right Labour party? Labour are supposed to be Socialists. The Tories are supposed to be Conservatives. There needs to be a clear choice between the two. Things get messy when they're so alike voters can't tell the difference and turnout falls. Labour ceased to offer any sort of socialist politics, no nationalisations of any kind, all they did was pay lip service to a bit of "social democracy" whilst behaving like capitalists. And we've a Conservative Party for that sort of thing. They ceased to stand for anything other than power. It's understandable why they loved the EU so much, it offered policies and they'd run out of ideas of their own.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Jul 5, 2023 8:58:49 GMT
There is much nonsense in your post Vinny. Honestly not worth the effort of pointing each one out.
I am struggling to understand the thrust of this thread. Under Blair Labour won three elections in a row and IMHO made the UK a much better place, all from a broadly social democratic positioning. It has lost every other election in the last 50 years or so. Under Starmer it is moving back to a broadly social democratic position and appears likely to win the next election.
It appears to have learnt the lesson that you need to offer policies that enough people will vote for in order to deliver those policies and improve the country (as they see it). It is hard to see what you are criticising them for??
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2023 9:26:12 GMT
Under Blair Labour lost millions of votes even though he enjoyed the wholehearted support of the entire tabloid press including The Sun, the Daily Mail etc.
In 2017 with the tabloid press against Corbyn, Labour got a bigger popular vote than it did in 2001.
And even in 2019, it got a bigger popular vote than it did in 2005.
Blair only got his wins because at the time the Tories were so unpopular.
But in his desire to beat the Tories he thought he had to become like them.
And going by voting results that did Labour considerable damage.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Jul 5, 2023 9:55:54 GMT
50 years of elections Vinny - 3 wins (all by Blair) loads of losses.
Now with Starmer moving the party back towards Blair's "Social Democrat" positioning, it looks like Labour will win again.
It seems an odd conclusion to draw from the data that the route to electoral success is more socialism and less social democrat but you are free to draw that conclusion if you wish, Vinny. I guess it is up to those running Labour whether to take your advice or continue along what feels like a winning path to the next election.
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2023 10:16:40 GMT
The point about the decline in the popular vote is lost on you.
The key to retaining power is listening to the public, connecting, serving.
Labour obsessed with London centric focus groups instead of reaching out to the public and listening.
All the while industrial decline carried on and support for Labour plummeted.
|
|