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Post by Orac on Jun 29, 2023 9:48:32 GMT
People often cite this 'real meeting' standard, but it is a bit flawed imho.
An internet political discussion is not a lot like meeting people in a general social setting such as a pub or restaurant. It is much more like turning up to an arranged competitive debate with an audience.
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Post by dappy on Jun 29, 2023 9:57:22 GMT
I'd missed that Carty was a moderator. Good. He did a good job on the old forum (while woefully unresourced)
I wonder if the moderators (and owner - is that Tinculin's title) could talk between themselves and advise clearly their thinking as to why they do not consider it a good idea to adopt "mind zone" rules to the majority of the forum and (if considered necessary) having a single subforum ("mindless zone") where playground abuse and name calling is accepted?
Presumably if they are content to leave forum as it is, they are accepting the reality of and endorsing the namecalling and insults that proliferate.
Is in their view, completely unlimited "free speech" worth its costs?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:07:46 GMT
Dappy, as long as you are mentally consigning half the population to 'a silo' or pretending some handy bogeyman invented internet politics in 2016, you are actually making the problem slightly worse by refusing to engage using reason. Your absurd, counterfactual positions make polarisation unavoidable Actually his post was a very thoughtful contribution and made a lot of sense. It is self-evidently obvious that Trump is unfit for office yet millions of Americans seem to view him as some sort of political messiah who is victim of a massive establishmentarian conspiracy. That so many believe this requires explanation and Dappy has put forward reasonable arguments as to how that has come to be, and most of what he has said stacks up. He did not say that the internet was invented in 2016 which is just an untrue straw man. What he said was actually more nuanced, that around about that time a certain populist operator whom he named as Steve Bannon, cynically realised the potential for using the internet to establish echo chambers where false narratives useful for his cause could become established. Other right wing populists have learned from this. If the left also learns to do this on the same scale we really will be in trouble.
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 29, 2023 10:08:13 GMT
I'd missed that Carty was a moderator. Good. He did a good job on the old forum (while woefully unresourced) I wonder if the moderators (and owner - is that Tinculin's title) could talk between themselves and advise clearly their thinking as to why they do not consider it a good idea to adopt "mind zone" rules to the majority of the forum and (if considered necessary) having a single subforum ("mindless zone") where playground abuse and name calling is accepted? Presumably if they are content to leave forum as it is, they are accepting the reality of and endorsing the namecalling and insults that proliferate. Is in their view, completely unlimited "free speech" worth its costs? This place is more like a social club than a debating society, Dappy. If it's a debating society, it's a complete failure. I've not seen a single person change their political stance in all the time I've been on this and the previous forum. That's true of all the 'debating' forums on the internet. So, if it doesn't work as an effective debating society, what does it work as? It must work as something because it has survived while 'debating' forums have failed all around it. As I said, my view is that it's a success because the moderation is keyed more to a social club than a debating platform. I don't understand why you aren't content with the Mind Zone. It's a simple but brilliant idea. Kudos to whoever came up with the idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:09:16 GMT
Dappy, as long as you are mentally consigning half the population to 'a silo' or pretending some handy bogeyman invented internet politics in 2016, you are actually making the problem slightly worse by refusing to engage using reason. Your absurd, counterfactual positions make polarisation unavoidable Actually his post was a very thoughtful contribution and made a lot of sense. It is self-evidently obvious that Trump is unfit for office yet millions of Americans seem to view him as some sort of political messiah who is victim of a massive establishmentarian conspiracy. That so many believe this requires explanation and Dappy has put forward reasonable arguments as to how that has come to be, and most of what he has said stacks up. He did not say that the internet was invented in 2016 which is just an untrue straw man. What he said was actually more nuanced, that around about that time a certain populist operator whom he named as Steve Bannon, cynically realised the potential for using the internet to establish echo chambers where false narratives useful for his cause could become established. Other right wing populists have learned from this. If the left also learns to do this on the same scale we really will be in trouble. So basically, the problem is the right. Ban the right and the left will live is peace and harmony forever and ever in the EU.
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Post by thomas on Jun 29, 2023 10:09:51 GMT
People often cite this 'real meeting' standard, but it is a bit flawed imho. An internet political discussion is not a lot like meeting people in a general social setting such as a pub or restaurant. It is much more like turning up to an arranged competitive debate with an audience. agreed. I have been hearing the same folk post this flawed standard about faceless keyboard warriors hiding behind anonymity for years now , often the same folk posting the same rhetoric as a defence mechanism for how they struggle with online debate and the inevitable name calling.
Pointed out many a time that the same hatred , vitirolic attacks happens on sites like facebook , where people are known , can easily be traced , and anecdotaly i have seen fights boil over from online debate ( and slagging matches) into real life with certain family members turning up at other family members doors.
Exactly. Totally agree. Some folk believe we should be turning up for polite mild conversation , others to engage at the vicars tea party.
Human emotion , personal characteristics come into play at all times. We are all different , some passionate ,angry , others calm , polite.
For me what makes a debating forum is the mix of views and humanity that participate. We dont want polite robots engaging in banal conversation.
I enjoy for example steve srb polite , often reasoned conversation as much as i enjoy witty cracs , put downs and sometimes the laugh of watching the troll gain a rise out of someone.
This forum has a good mix , and one that makes it interesting rather then some of the jerk circle forums and sites i have been a member of .
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Post by Bentley on Jun 29, 2023 10:12:25 GMT
The mind zone is a place where we are supposed to be polite to each other . There is no rule that fallacies or false claims are prohibited. You cant moderate a thread into making it a good debate . A fallacy free zone would soon deteriorate into an argument about fallacies .
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Post by thomas on Jun 29, 2023 10:14:14 GMT
Dappy, as long as you are mentally consigning half the population to 'a silo' or pretending some handy bogeyman invented internet politics in 2016, you are actually making the problem slightly worse by refusing to engage using reason. Your absurd, counterfactual positions make polarisation unavoidable Actually his post was a very thoughtful contribution and made a lot of sense. It is self-evidently obvious that Trump is unfit for office yet millions of Americans seem to view him as some sort of political messiah who is victim of a massive establishmentarian conspiracy. Steve , im not defending trump , but people said the same about your hero jeremy corbyn being unfit for office. He too was some sort of political messiah who is beleived to be some sort of victim of an establishment conspiracy.
Fitness for office is in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:15:59 GMT
People often cite this 'real meeting' standard, but it is a bit flawed imho. An internet political discussion is not a lot like meeting people in a general social setting such as a pub or restaurant. It is much more like turning up to an arranged competitive debate with an audience. A reasonable point, but even in your scenario they would be far less prone to flinging playground insults at each other than some of us have been guilty of on forums like this. For one thing, such a meeting would tend to be subject to some sort of chairperson enforcing reasonable conduct. And every speaker would be consciously aware of the physical presence of an audience whose reactions they would hear in real time. And the type of audience that would show up for such a debate would be unlikely to be impressed by playground insults. So even there speakers would tend to conduct themselves better than they might do here.
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Post by thomas on Jun 29, 2023 10:24:56 GMT
People often cite this 'real meeting' standard, but it is a bit flawed imho. An internet political discussion is not a lot like meeting people in a general social setting such as a pub or restaurant. It is much more like turning up to an arranged competitive debate with an audience. A reasonable point, but even in your scenario they would be far less prone to flinging playground insults at each other than some of us have been guilty of on forums like this. Steve the disinhibition effect of taking away online anonymity has been debunked many a time.
Research suggests that non-anonymous accounts are not only more aggressive on average than anonymous accounts, but they are also far more influential in encouraging other users to join social-media pile-ons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:27:18 GMT
Actually his post was a very thoughtful contribution and made a lot of sense. It is self-evidently obvious that Trump is unfit for office yet millions of Americans seem to view him as some sort of political messiah who is victim of a massive establishmentarian conspiracy. Steve , im not defending trump , but people said the same about your hero jeremy corbyn being unfit for office. He too was some sort of political messiah who is beleived to be some sort of victim of an establishment conspiracy.
Fitness for office is in the eye of the beholder.
I know that many thought Corbyn unfit for office for a variety of reasons, some of them specious, some of them more valid. I would say that on the personal level I believe Corbyn is a far better human being than Trump, who is clearly a self-interested narcissist. Corbyn was at heart a back bench campaigner. As a leader he was too inflexible, not tough enough, too easily swayed in areas he did not feel strongly about. And rather too dogmatic. Too many past associations that could be weaponised against him as well. But he did at least genuinely care, which I dont think can be said for the likes of Starmer, Johnson, or Trump. But I will say no more about this because it will side-track the discussion into areas of the utmost irrelevance. Corbyn after all is never going to be anything other than a back bench MP. Trump has a chance of again becoming president again.
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Post by thomas on Jun 29, 2023 10:30:06 GMT
Steve , im not defending trump , but people said the same about your hero jeremy corbyn being unfit for office. He too was some sort of political messiah who is beleived to be some sort of victim of an establishment conspiracy.
Fitness for office is in the eye of the beholder.
I would say that on the personal level I believe Corbyn is a far better human being than Trump, who is clearly a self-interested narcissist. you validate my point that fitness for office is in the eye of the beholder.
I dont believe keir starmer and new labour are fit for office , but it wont stop others voting for or against them. Same with Trump.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:32:57 GMT
A reasonable point, but even in your scenario they would be far less prone to flinging playground insults at each other than some of us have been guilty of on forums like this. Steve the disinhibition effect of taking away online anonymity has been debunked many a time.
Research suggests that non-anonymous accounts are not only more aggressive on average than anonymous accounts, but they are also far more influential in encouraging other users to join social-media pile-ons.
Perhaps, but most of the facebook forums I have been on rarely degenerate to to depths that can sometimes be plumbed on forums such as this. Though they do also act as places where conduct might be less inhibited than in real life. For one thing, if a person you are talking to in real life says something that makes you think him an idiot, you are unlikely to say so if he is a lot bigger than you through a reluctance to suffer a smack in the mouth. On any internet forum people would tend to be less inhibited at expressing their inner negativity. All the more so where they also have anonymity..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:34:54 GMT
I would say that on the personal level I believe Corbyn is a far better human being than Trump, who is clearly a self-interested narcissist. you validate my point that fitness for office is in the eye of the beholder.
I dont believe keir starmer and new labour are fit for office , but it wont stop others voting for or against them. Same with Trump.
Though clearly Trump is a far dodgier character than any of the others. This is just demonstrably obvious. But to go into detail about how and why would be a diversion from the main topic so I am going to leave it there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:37:03 GMT
Actually his post was a very thoughtful contribution and made a lot of sense. It is self-evidently obvious that Trump is unfit for office yet millions of Americans seem to view him as some sort of political messiah who is victim of a massive establishmentarian conspiracy. That so many believe this requires explanation and Dappy has put forward reasonable arguments as to how that has come to be, and most of what he has said stacks up. He did not say that the internet was invented in 2016 which is just an untrue straw man. What he said was actually more nuanced, that around about that time a certain populist operator whom he named as Steve Bannon, cynically realised the potential for using the internet to establish echo chambers where false narratives useful for his cause could become established. Other right wing populists have learned from this. If the left also learns to do this on the same scale we really will be in trouble. So basically, the problem is the right. Ban the right and the left will live is peace and harmony forever and ever in the EU. Nonsense. Who suggested banning the right? You can attack that straw man of an idea if you wish but it serves no constructive purpose because no one thinks the right can or should be banned.
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