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Post by Toreador on Jun 23, 2023 17:43:21 GMT
Our wildlife and our infrastructure are not geared up to southern European weather. You may have noticed if you have been to Europe that they have many flash flood drains through their towns, we don't. You may have noticed their roofs and wall are white, ours aren't. Our insulation etc? Our entire infrastructure is designed to cope with the weather we have had for hundreds of years. Not the torrential thunderstorms and long dry summers we are already experiencing while you say climate change hasn't even happened yet. So what costs more, changing our entire infrastructure to accommodate our changes in weather or changing our power production to stop that change.
And I haven't even begun to talk about how our trees and plants are not adapted to all the insects and funguses that are now able to survive in our new climate. And we're not even close to climate change yet. We cannot stop that change - even the US cannot If the whole wide world got on board and spent trillions of dollars they still couldn't tell us by how much the world temperature would fall or even if it would fall enough to avert what they see as a disaster.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 23, 2023 18:46:30 GMT
Our wildlife and our infrastructure are not geared up to southern European weather. You may have noticed if you have been to Europe that they have many flash flood drains through their towns, we don't. You may have noticed their roofs and wall are white, ours aren't. Our insulation etc? Our entire infrastructure is designed to cope with the weather we have had for hundreds of years. Not the torrential thunderstorms and long dry summers we are already experiencing while you say climate change hasn't even happened yet. So what costs more, changing our entire infrastructure to accommodate our changes in weather or changing our power production to stop that change.
And I haven't even begun to talk about how our trees and plants are not adapted to all the insects and funguses that are now able to survive in our new climate. And we're not even close to climate change yet. We cannot stop that change - even the US cannot You jump straight from climate change is good for us to we can't stop it. Without attempting to address my answer. Well fine then I wont answer you either.
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Post by Toreador on Jun 23, 2023 18:52:03 GMT
We cannot stop that change - even the US cannot You jump straight from climate change is good for us to we can't stop it. Without attempting to address my answer. Well fine then I wont answer you either. Can you answer my point?
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Post by zanygame on Jun 23, 2023 18:57:24 GMT
You jump straight from climate change is good for us to we can't stop it. Without attempting to address my answer. Well fine then I wont answer you either. Can you answer my point? No. I'm dealing with something else.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 23, 2023 21:43:31 GMT
We cannot stop that change - even the US cannot You jump straight from climate change is good for us to we can't stop it. Without attempting to address my answer. Well fine then I wont answer you either. But you cannot tell me that spending all this money and destituting ourselves will actually make one iota of difference. Far better to spend the money on mitigating any negatives as and when (if) they arise.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 23, 2023 21:55:26 GMT
You jump straight from climate change is good for us to we can't stop it. Without attempting to address my answer. Well fine then I wont answer you either. But you cannot tell me that spending all this money and destituting ourselves will actually make one iota of difference. Far better to spend the money on mitigating any negatives as and when (if) they arise. Nope. You said climate change is better for us. I said it wasn't. You claimed my answer was intriguing. I took the time to answer you in detail. I will not allow you to just ignore that because it makes you wrong. Either admit that you were wrong saying climate change was better for us or contradict my answer.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 23, 2023 22:03:19 GMT
But you cannot tell me that spending all this money and destituting ourselves will actually make one iota of difference. Far better to spend the money on mitigating any negatives as and when (if) they arise. Nope. You said climate change is better for us. I said it wasn't. You claimed my answer was intriguing. I took the time to answer you in detail. I will not allow you to just ignore that because it makes you wrong. Either admit that you were wrong saying climate change was better for us or contradict my answer. Climate change is better. From 2000 to 2019 we had around 60,500 people die from the cold - in the same timeframe just 800 died from heat. If we moved to this Mediterranean climate they keep promising we would save thousands of lives.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 23, 2023 22:08:45 GMT
Nope. You said climate change is better for us. I said it wasn't. You claimed my answer was intriguing. I took the time to answer you in detail. I will not allow you to just ignore that because it makes you wrong. Either admit that you were wrong saying climate change was better for us or contradict my answer. Climate change is better. From 2000 to 2019 we had around 60,500 people die from the cold - in the same timeframe just 800 died from heat. If we moved to this Mediterranean climate they keep promising we would save thousands of lives. Address my post and stop dodging it. You said better off and gave financial examples.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2023 22:27:46 GMT
Nope. You said climate change is better for us. I said it wasn't. You claimed my answer was intriguing. I took the time to answer you in detail. I will not allow you to just ignore that because it makes you wrong. Either admit that you were wrong saying climate change was better for us or contradict my answer. Climate change is better. From 2000 to 2019 we had around 60,500 people die from the cold - in the same timeframe just 800 died from heat. If we moved to this Mediterranean climate they keep promising we would save thousands of lives. You seem to be missing the fact that the UK does not live in isolation as far as climate is concerned. If we were to get a Mediterranean climate then the changes are likely to be just as substantial elsewhere in the world. The impacts globally would be devastating insofar as agriculture is concerned, with the likelihood of massive crop failures in previously fertile areas. Those with food will prioritise feeding their own populations. Those without enough to do that - like us - could be in big trouble. A collapse in global agriculture would likely see famine on a global scale with possibly billions starving and other billions desperately seeking new homes. Some nations might be tempted to fight wars over food supplies. But aside from all that, this blasé assumption of a Mediterranean climate of constant summer sun and mild winters might not actually come to pass. Some climatologists think our climate could become a lot wetter. But worse than that, our climate is already a lot warmer than it would otherwise be in these latitudes due to the gulf stream. This is powered by what is called the Atlantic conveyer whereby warmer water flows northwards keeping us warm before sinking and flowing back south deep under the ocean. I will not make this post any longer than necessary by detailing the science. Suffice it to say that the salinity of the water is a big factor in this and that reducing the salinity of the water by adding a lot of unsalty fresh water slows it down and can potentially stop it all together. There is climatological evidence that this has happened before. And here is the thing. Global warming is starting to melt the Greenland ice, and this is accelerating, pouring more fresh water into the North Atlantic. And the Gulf Stream has measurably slowed due to this. If as a result of global warming so much fresh meltwater flows into the North Atlantic that the Gulf Stream shuts down completely, whilst average global temperatures increase, locally here and in north-western Europe things could get a lot colder for a millennium or two. So just assuming that we are going to be like Greece and thinking all will be well is complacency writ large.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 24, 2023 6:36:17 GMT
Climate change is better. From 2000 to 2019 we had around 60,500 people die from the cold - in the same timeframe just 800 died from heat. If we moved to this Mediterranean climate they keep promising we would save thousands of lives. Address my post and stop dodging it. You said better off and gave financial examples. I already have - I'm sorry that it is not the answer you were looking for. All the issues that you cite with the suitability of buildings/infrastructure with hot weather we already know how to solve. You cannot tell me how much global warming would fall if we went down your route - in all likelihood we would still need to invest in mitigating against higher temperatures anyway. Spend twice as much to achieve the same outcome.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 25, 2023 6:59:30 GMT
talking of spending money - energy bills are going to rise by another £170 a year from next month as the Net Zero levy is implemented. If we get much more of this cheap energy we will all be bankrupt...
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Post by zanygame on Jun 25, 2023 9:24:28 GMT
Address my post and stop dodging it. You said better off and gave financial examples. I already have - I'm sorry that it is not the answer you were looking for. You most certainly haven't, but I wont waste my time asking again. Experience has taught me you never back up claims if they are found to be wrong, nor apologise. The question was not whether we know how to solve them, it was the cost of doing so compared to building renewable energy. The only reason we might have to mitigate temperature increases anyway is because we have left it so late to start. But there is no upper limit to climate change, if we do nothing the temperature continues to rise. Frankly I despair at your short sighted view. Do you really not care at all what happens after your time is up?
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Post by zanygame on Jun 25, 2023 9:27:41 GMT
talking of spending money - energy bills are going to rise by another £170 a year from next month as the Net Zero levy is implemented. If we get much more of this cheap energy we will all be bankrupt... I'm sorry to hear that £14 a month would bankrupt you. I propose we increase that amount and then lower the energy price for your first 6kwh per day. That way vulnerable people like yourself will be kept safe.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 25, 2023 10:40:31 GMT
The question was not whether we know how to solve them, it was the cost of doing so compared to building renewable energy. No that is not the question. We cannot stop climate change by ourselves - in fact we have already reduced our emissions far more than any other developed country. So yes, we could spend billions damaging the economy trying to reach net zero by 2030 (or whenever) but there is absolutely no guarantee that will make the slightest bit of difference to the climate. And having spent those billions we would still need to spend billions more (that we would not have) mitigating the effects of climate change anyway.
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Post by thomas on Jun 25, 2023 10:49:50 GMT
talking of spending money - energy bills are going to rise by another £170 a year from next month as the Net Zero levy is implemented. If we get much more of this cheap energy we will all be bankrupt... I'm sorry to hear that £14 a month would bankrupt you. I propose we increase that amount and then lower the energy price for your first 6kwh per day. That way vulnerable people like yourself will be kept safe. as i hinted at on another thread zany , i think this mocking people over a mere extra £14 a month is pretty poor taste. My energy costs have went from dual fuel £110 per month to £329 a month. comparing online graphs of energy use over the past two years (where i have been stuck with the same supplier and cant move as yet ) my overall energy use is down , but costs trebled.
So its not just £14 per month. Its an extra £14 per month unnecessarily , on top of an extra £219 per month before we talk about any other cost increases elswhere.
If you are that rich you think £4000 a year energy costs , before the £168 a year extra is applied is a mere trifle then good for you. I would say for the vast majority its unsutainable , and we dont need extra taxes making us colder and poorer.
As i said , good luck selling green taxes to the impoverished uk public at the next election.
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