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Post by Orac on May 31, 2023 13:47:06 GMT
There may be truth in that. If the matter is genuinely addressable and the country is going to end up as an offshore province of Pakistan, then the issue of EU membership is somewhat minor. Now the UK is out, it’s obvious that EU membership wasn’t the cause of the “worrying” immigration. You seem to me jumping the gun and ignoring contingent issues. Without democratic accountability on the issue, then there is no place to apply pressure for a change. If you are saying the UK is not a democracy and cannot become one on this matter, than I agree that being in the EU is, at best an irrelevancy. Your position would seem to line up with Dan's apparent position. |
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 15:28:07 GMT
Now the UK is out, it’s obvious that EU membership wasn’t the cause of the “worrying” immigration. You seem to me jumping the gun and ignoring contingent issues. Without democratic accountability on the issue, then there is no place to apply pressure for a change. If you are saying the UK is not a democracy and cannot become one on this matter, than I agree that being in the EU is, at best an irrelevancy. Your position would seem to line up with Dan's apparent position. There are possibly many contingent issues the whole Leave-Remain debate may have either boosted or ignored. Farage was possibly the most notorious of the self-aggrandising poseurs — to bring the thread back on track. Having an In-Out referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU, with one side pushing what have now proved to be untruths and irrelevancies, didn’t serve Democracy well — not because “my side” lost, but because it was decided on issues that the UK/EU relationship didn’t really control… |
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Post by Vinny on May 31, 2023 15:48:45 GMT
Well yes, there were a lot of untruths in the referendum campaign.
Not least from the remain side which lied like crazy.
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Post by Orac on May 31, 2023 15:48:50 GMT
You seem to me jumping the gun and ignoring contingent issues. Without democratic accountability on the issue, then there is no place to apply pressure for a change. If you are saying the UK is not a democracy and cannot become one on this matter, than I agree that being in the EU is, at best an irrelevancy. Your position would seem to line up with Dan's apparent position. not because “my side” lost, but because it was decided on issues that the UK/EU relationship didn’t really control… That's not really true. One of the sticking points for Brexit negotiation was the control of our borders. I believe Cameron attempted to get concessions on this matter but the EU seemed to believe us relinquishing such control was central to to the deal. |
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Post by colbops on May 31, 2023 17:03:44 GMT
There may be truth in that. If the matter is genuinely addressable and the country is going to end up as an offshore province of Pakistan, then the issue of EU membership is somewhat minor. Immigration as an issue in the debate on Leave or Remain was the deciding factor. Admittedly it was dishonestly presented as mostly illegal non-white from poor Islamic countries, but it did the trick. Polish plumbers, Hungarian dentists, and Spanish waiters were only dragged into the debate to give it some respectability against the argument that carers and medical staff from Africa, Indian sub continent, Philippines, etc were keeping healthcare afloat. Now the UK is out, it’s obvious that EU membership wasn’t the cause of the “worrying” immigration. And now we’re getting the mixed messages that immigration must be brought down, but we still need to recruit people for the jobs that are short of people — there’s even a suggestion of giving £10k welcomes to teachers from Africa. It’s not civil war that’s needed, but the UK would benefit from an honest government that could devise a total modern economic plan and present it in a way that the public can understand, debate and, eventually, vote on. Perhaps the UK requires a coalition of like thinkers with extremes pushed to the fringes. The next general election might give just that… Hahaha, Either the conservatives will pull off a minor miracle and turn around their fortunes or Labour will win the next election, maybe there will even be a coalition. Nothing much will change however. Brexit was never going to have a massive impact on immigration numbers. The make up of those numbers sure, but the total of course not. It did remove a blocker, but there are several more. No government is likely to tackle the others because they are huge challenges and in the short to medium term the pain will far outweigh any gain (if there is any at all). We are talking generational commitment. The entire basis of the UK economic system is a pyramid scheme with a need for perpetual growth. The pyramid scheme is collapsing and the only thing propping it up is immigration and foreign investment. Ultimately it will collapse but that is a 'future problem' for the time being and all the time it is, there is no political will to take the pain that comes with facing up to it and doing something about it. There will be no change in our lifetimes unless there is a civil war, revolution, a war on UK soil, or some other unforeseen global catastrophe makes it not 'a future problem' anymore. |
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Post by bancroft on May 31, 2023 17:07:46 GMT
Farage did not win the election so he can't influence much.
The colleges were one group strongly against Brexit yet seem to have found a way to make it work and we are now counting these bizarrely as immigrants, don't think we were before.
It would be good to hear Farage's take on immigrants from Ukraine and Hong Kong as this seems large. 250k for work visas I would certainly want that broken down. I don't care about fruit pickers or cleaners, or doctors yet what other categories?
I think hard Brexit would have taken us to currency controls as the world government mob (Biden, IMF, WTO and UN) would have tried to crush us, the Tories have kept us afloat until now excepting Trusses moment of being forced back to dampening demand to break Russia and China.
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 17:12:28 GMT
not because “my side” lost, but because it was decided on issues that the UK/EU relationship didn’t really control… That's not really true. One of the sticking points for Brexit negotiation was the control of our borders. I believe Cameron attempted to get concessions on this matter but the EU seemed to believe us relinquishing such control was central to to the deal. But we’ve now got control of our borders… |
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Post by colbops on May 31, 2023 17:16:34 GMT
That's not really true. One of the sticking points for Brexit negotiation was the control of our borders. I believe Cameron attempted to get concessions on this matter but the EU seemed to believe us relinquishing such control was central to to the deal. But we’ve now got control of our borders… I've always had control of my borders. Though I probably should weed out a few more invasive species from one of them a little more regularly. |
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Post by Orac on May 31, 2023 17:24:36 GMT
That's not really true. One of the sticking points for Brexit negotiation was the control of our borders. I believe Cameron attempted to get concessions on this matter but the EU seemed to believe us relinquishing such control was central to to the deal. But we’ve now got control of our borders… By leaving the EU |
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 17:36:44 GMT
But we’ve now got control of our borders… By leaving the EU Exactly — and what specific material benefits has it brought…? |
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Post by Orac on May 31, 2023 17:47:17 GMT
Exactly — and what specific material benefits has it brought…? But, Pat, that's not where the conversation started. The conversation started over whether border control and membership of the EU were related |
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Post by Pacifico on May 31, 2023 17:55:38 GMT
There may be truth in that. If the matter is genuinely addressable and the country is going to end up as an offshore province of Pakistan, then the issue of EU membership is somewhat minor. Immigration as an issue in the debate on Leave or Remain was the deciding factor. Where are you getting this claim from?. The Ashcroft polling showed that the most important issue (for those that voted Leave) was that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK by UK politicians - controlling immigration was a secondary concern. |
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 18:20:41 GMT
I forgot — the UK has also reclaimed its sovereignty by putting UK on its cars and changing the British passport cover to blue. All vast upgrades to the lives of British citizens…
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 18:40:00 GMT
Immigration as an issue in the debate on Leave or Remain was the deciding factor. Where are you getting this claim from?. The Ashcroft polling showed that the most important issue (for those that voted Leave) was that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK by UK politicians - controlling immigration was a secondary concern. Controlling immigration may have been a secondary concern, but it was enough of a concern to tip the vote (52-48) in favour of leave. The idea that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK by UK politicians was as much an idea that had as much actual basis in reality as the immigration argument. But that’s all done and dusted. Now both positions have recently come together brilliantly — the UK’s decisions and efforts to reduce immigration are all under UK control and we’ve passed our own laws about it. So we claim to need to reduce immigration, but we also have to import people to work in sectors with vacancies, so let’s pay some of the most sorely needed £10k to come here. What’s so confusing that the electorate can’t understand why the UK is now better off out…? |
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Post by patman post on May 31, 2023 18:41:10 GMT
Exactly — and what specific material benefits has it brought…? But, Pat, that's not where the conversation started. The conversation started over whether border control and membership of the EU were related Related in fact, or related in argument…? |
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