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Post by Toreador on Jun 8, 2023 13:13:07 GMT
There is nothing particularly difficult in bringing older houses up to modern standards, it happens every day. Part of the problem is that fossil fuels were so abundant and cheap that for many years people didn't care how inefficiently they were used as long as they made their house comfortable. Spending money on 'invisibles' like insulation and plugging leaks just never became a priority. But times have changed. You still haven't told us btw why heat pumps are 'shit'. Daniel, upgrading old properties is very expensive before you even start installing heat pumps. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 8, 2023 15:13:52 GMT
Not upgrading them can be even more expensive, as well as probably miserably uncomfortable.
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Post by colbops on Jun 8, 2023 15:16:58 GMT
Of course you are wrong - again. The UK has some of the oldest housing stock in Europe and as such much of it is inherently unsuitable for the type of heating heat pumps provide. Even now the newest builds are now finding out the downfalls of these noisy inefficient peices of junk. The site I am on now out of the 112 completd houses 32 people fell into the ECO trap and had them installed from new. Out of that 32 23 have already been removed along with 2 more to follow. I wonder now why newbuilds are being built with proper flues and chimneys. And as for EV's every year we hear the same old bullshit about battery breakthroughs and life expectancy being increased which is total hogwash. Anyone would think that they had acheived perpetual motion to listen to some of these morons who publish this total BS about batteries. Heat pumps come in all shapes and sizes. A lot of the problems arise when the wrong type is specified for the application, or as you'll know Jonksy, when the M&E contractors deviate from the original design as they start VEing some cheap crap into the build to reduce their costs. There are plenty of solutions suitable for older housing stock, but typically it isn't work that can be done in isolation usually older buildings will need to be properly insulated and may also need the internal heating system upgraded - rads, TRVs etc. As part of a well designed system in a well designed house, heat pumps can and do perform well. When they are chucked in as an afterthought by poorly trained designers or delivered and commissioned by poorly trained M&E contractors they won't deliver on the promises and will get a bad rap. Again being in the trade you'll know that the goal is to get the buildings up as cheaply and quickly as possible. In most cases the bare minimum will be done to comply with Part L of the building regs, and get though the building inspector's scrutiny. Developers will be sticking in gas boilers until the day the regs tighten up and they aren't allowed to anymore. Its just the way it works. Sadly a lot of newbuilds suffer from exactly the same problem that caused the cladding scandal. In the case of new builds it is stick various things into a property that earn SAP points and then a good EPC rating. No mind paid to whether these things are actually the right solution, or will actually result in an energy efficient home in practice. |
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Post by jonksy on Jun 8, 2023 15:27:07 GMT
Even now the newest builds are now finding out the downfalls of these noisy inefficient peices of junk. The site I am on now out of the 112 completd houses 32 people fell into the ECO trap and had them installed from new. Out of that 32 23 have already been removed along with 2 more to follow. I wonder now why newbuilds are being built with proper flues and chimneys. And as for EV's every year we hear the same old bullshit about battery breakthroughs and life expectancy being increased which is total hogwash. Anyone would think that they had acheived perpetual motion to listen to some of these morons who publish this total BS about batteries. Heat pumps come in all shapes and sizes. A lot of the problems arise when the wrong type is specified for the application, or as you'll know Jonksy, when the M&E contractors deviate from the original design as they start VEing some cheap crap into the build to reduce their costs. There are plenty of solutions suitable for older housing stock, but typically it isn't work that can be done in isolation usually older buildings will need to be properly insulated and may also need the internal heating system upgraded - rads, TRVs etc. As part of a well designed system in a well designed house, heat pumps can and do perform well. When they are chucked in as an afterthought by poorly trained designers or delivered and commissioned by poorly trained M&E contractors they won't deliver on the promises and will get a bad rap. Again being in the trade you'll know that the goal is to get the buildings up as cheaply and quickly as possible. In most cases the bare minimum will be done to comply with Part L of the building regs, and get though the building inspector's scrutiny. Developers will be sticking in gas boilers until the day the regs tighten up and they aren't allowed to anymore. Its just the way it works. Sadly a lot of newbuilds suffer from exactly the same problem that caused the cladding scandal. In the case of new builds it is stick various things into a property that earn SAP points and then a good EPC rating. No mind paid to whether these things are actually the right solution, or will actually result in an energy efficient home in practice. It doesn't mater what shape or form they come in they are still inefficient and a poor substitute for conventional boilers. |
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Post by colbops on Jun 8, 2023 15:40:28 GMT
Heat pumps come in all shapes and sizes. A lot of the problems arise when the wrong type is specified for the application, or as you'll know Jonksy, when the M&E contractors deviate from the original design as they start VEing some cheap crap into the build to reduce their costs. There are plenty of solutions suitable for older housing stock, but typically it isn't work that can be done in isolation usually older buildings will need to be properly insulated and may also need the internal heating system upgraded - rads, TRVs etc. As part of a well designed system in a well designed house, heat pumps can and do perform well. When they are chucked in as an afterthought by poorly trained designers or delivered and commissioned by poorly trained M&E contractors they won't deliver on the promises and will get a bad rap. Again being in the trade you'll know that the goal is to get the buildings up as cheaply and quickly as possible. In most cases the bare minimum will be done to comply with Part L of the building regs, and get though the building inspector's scrutiny. Developers will be sticking in gas boilers until the day the regs tighten up and they aren't allowed to anymore. Its just the way it works. Sadly a lot of newbuilds suffer from exactly the same problem that caused the cladding scandal. In the case of new builds it is stick various things into a property that earn SAP points and then a good EPC rating. No mind paid to whether these things are actually the right solution, or will actually result in an energy efficient home in practice. It doesn't mater what shape or form they come in they are still inefficient and a poor substitute for conventional boilers. That is just not true Jonksy the CoP for a gas boiler is 0.9 though in practice they don't get near this and are often 0.6-0.7 because heating systems aren't balanced properly and the resulting DeltaT's often result in them not condensing properly. Conversely a well set up Heat Pump driven system can achieve a CoP of 3 - 4, while a badly performing one will usually hit 2. |
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Post by jonksy on Jun 8, 2023 15:56:37 GMT
It doesn't mater what shape or form they come in they are still inefficient and a poor substitute for conventional boilers. That is just not true Jonksy the CoP for a gas boiler is 0.9 though in practice they don't get near this and are often 0.6-0.7 because heating systems aren't balanced properly and the resulting DeltaT's often result in them not condensing properly. Conversely a well set up Heat Pump driven system can achieve a CoP of 3 - 4, while a badly performing one will usually hit 2. People in the UK do not like blow heaters unlike the states and it doesn't matter what the cop number is for underfloor heating it still doesn't achieve the necessary output for underfloor heating or achieve the reliability or silence of a conventional boiler. |
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Post by colbops on Jun 8, 2023 16:09:50 GMT
That is just not true Jonksy the CoP for a gas boiler is 0.9 though in practice they don't get near this and are often 0.6-0.7 because heating systems aren't balanced properly and the resulting DeltaT's often result in them not condensing properly. Conversely a well set up Heat Pump driven system can achieve a CoP of 3 - 4, while a badly performing one will usually hit 2. People in the UK do not like blow heaters unlike the states and it doesn't matter what the cop number is for underfloor heating it still doesn't achieve the necessary output for underfloor heating or achieve the reliability or silence of a conventional boiler. A heat pump isn't a blow heater. Heat pumps are more than capable of providing water at an appropriate temperature for underfloor heating setups, or indeed a more conventional radiator setup providing the radiators have been correctly sized and the home is insulated to an appropriate standard. CoP is a very important factor when it comes to generating heat. setting aside any environmental conditions it directly impacts one's wallet. |
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Post by jonksy on Jun 8, 2023 16:24:26 GMT
People in the UK do not like blow heaters unlike the states and it doesn't matter what the cop number is for underfloor heating it still doesn't achieve the necessary output for underfloor heating or achieve the reliability or silence of a conventional boiler. A heat pump isn't a blow heater. Heat pumps are more than capable of providing water at an appropriate temperature for underfloor heating setups, or indeed a more conventional radiator setup providing the radiators have been correctly sized and the home is insulated to an appropriate standard. CoP is a very important factor when it comes to generating heat. setting aside any environmental conditions it directly impacts one's wallet. I never said they were a blowheater I was reffering to the stateside version.And cop is insignificant in the underfloor heating it doesn't matter what the cop number is heatpumps cannot obtain the same energy over a stated period they are just not upto the task. A heated floor in the UK takes 3 times longer to acheive the desired temp to those who use a conventional boiler. Whats the point of a heatpump on a lower tarif if you have to run it 3 times longer to acheive the same output from a conventional boiler? They are a total flop and many new builds now are being built with an open fireplace along with backboilers. |
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Post by Bentley on Jun 8, 2023 16:52:52 GMT
There is nothing particularly difficult in bringing older houses up to modern standards, it happens every day. Part of the problem is that fossil fuels were so abundant and cheap that for many years people didn't care how inefficiently they were used as long as they made their house comfortable. Spending money on 'invisibles' like insulation and plugging leaks just never became a priority. But times have changed. You still haven't told us btw why heat pumps are 'shit'. No it doesn’t . Older homes aren’t easily brought up to new build standards regarding insulation . new builds are made from different materials and different specs. Heat pumps are shit because they don’t heat yiur house as well as gas boilers. |
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Post by Bentley on Jun 8, 2023 16:57:07 GMT
A heat pump isn't a blow heater. Heat pumps are more than capable of providing water at an appropriate temperature for underfloor heating setups, or indeed a more conventional radiator setup providing the radiators have been correctly sized and the home is insulated to an appropriate standard. CoP is a very important factor when it comes to generating heat. setting aside any environmental conditions it directly impacts one's wallet. I never said they were a blowheater I was reffering to the stateside version.And cop is insignificant in the underfloor heating it doesn't matter what the cop number is heatpumps cannot obtain the same energy over a stated period they are just not upto the task. A heated floor in the UK takes 3 times longer to acheive the desired temp to those who use a conventional boiler. Whats the point of a heatpump on a lower tarif if you have to run it 3 times longer to acheive the same output from a conventional boiler? They are a total flop and many new builds now are being built with an open fireplace along with backboilers. My nephew just moved into a new build and it has a gas boiler . |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 8, 2023 17:03:51 GMT
I moved into a new house six years ago and it had a heat pump. So there!
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Post by zanygame on Jun 8, 2023 17:05:15 GMT
So Jonksy is lying, is he, Zany? On the basis of a webpage, when he has hands on experience? I must be careful, you'll be reminding me this is in the Mind Zone.  You can make up your own mind. For me it was too incredible to believe that people who only bought these houses very recently with heat pumps had already had them removed. And my research into the site showed as I say that there was no mention of heat pumps of an entire page dedicated to how energy efficient the homes were. Doesn't add up for me. I don't need to remind you its the mind zone as you clearly know. Its the only area in the whole forum where rather than endless swearing and petty insults, real conversation is required. The rest of the forum is dying due to lack of it. I can't do much about that, but I can try and save this little bit, with your kind permission |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 8, 2023 17:07:51 GMT
I’ve spoken to several gas engineers and electricians over the past 18 months , some of them who fit both heat pumps and gas boilers . They have all told me that heat pumps are fine for new builds but not for older houses . I won’t be considering a heat pump in the future . Also Cadent are busy preparing all the domestic gas pipes for hydrogen gas. They are doing this outside my house now. No objection to hydrogen, but I suspect it will prove expensive. Still good to see you are interested in green energy.  |
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Post by Bentley on Jun 8, 2023 17:08:12 GMT
I moved into a new house six years ago and it had a heat pump. So there! Bully for you .Some houses do have a heat pump but I was surprised that a new build had a gas boiler nowadays. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 8, 2023 17:11:14 GMT
They suffer from the same problem as fan heaters - as soon as they are switched off the heating effect stops, you have no residual heat. Hence you need a fan whirring 24/7 to keep the temperature up. Now for some people they might not mind the noise but I'd suggest that for many used to the silence and efficiency of central heating that would be a step backwards. Those who are fool enough to have these monstrosity may put up with the noise but I can assure you the neighbours don't. This is one of reasons people do not like them or have any intention of owning one. Must be an installation issue, mine are almost silent (As in the video I posted) My neighbours didn't even know I had them. People have had aircon units for years, heat pumps are no different in their noise levels. That is just a myth. |
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