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Post by walterpaisley on May 21, 2023 14:57:26 GMT
I don't see the relevance of either of these replies. The last is an appropriate quote from "Satan" in the wonderful "South Park Movie". As Sadaam Hussein says to him.. "Satan, your ass is gigantic and red. Who am I going to pretend you are, Liza Minelli?" |
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Post by Orac on May 21, 2023 15:22:03 GMT
A justice oriented person can say that a lie is justified because the context of the lie allows / enables some more important truth, but, in such a framework, a lie in itself can't be its own justification in the same way a truth can be. In other words, a lie always needs a moral justification in a just framework, while the truth doesn't because it can contain its own justification. No framework of justice can be ambivalent about lying - it's a contradiction. Evil (imho) is an emotional preference for the lie to stand. I understand what you're saying: a lie can be moral if it leads to a greater good, so it is still rooted in morality. But what the greater good is is itself a subjective concept. I think we may be talking past each other a bit This is what i was saying - a lie can be justified by something other than itself but, in a good framework, it will also always need to be justified by something other than itself.
However, if your purpose itself is to deceive, none of this applies. An evil person's distant purpose is to deceive in the same way a good person's distant purpose is to reveal the truth. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 21, 2023 15:54:34 GMT
I don't see the relevance of either of these replies. The thing you're discussing doesn't actually exist. It's a mental construct. You said: 'I just wonder how we can be sure what evil is if there is no firm recognition of what is good.' That's a bit like saying we could work out what a baby omajig looks like if we only we knew what an adult omajig looks like. The problem is that there is no such thing as an omajig, so a baby omajig won't look like anything. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 21, 2023 15:55:42 GMT
I understand what you're saying: a lie can be moral if it leads to a greater good, so it is still rooted in morality. But what the greater good is is itself a subjective concept. I think we may be talking past each other a bit This is what i was saying - a lie can be justified by something other than itself but, in a good framework, it will also always need to be justified by something other than itself.
However, if your purpose itself is to deceive, none of this applies. An evil person's distant purpose is to deceive in the same way a good person's distant purpose is to reveal the truth. I'm still confused. Things might clear up with a little thought. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 29, 2023 10:23:26 GMT
Oh, evil loses out in the end. Tell that to the middle aged woman, at the start of the Ukranian war, on the street at a rail station, her rolls and food for the trip to safety all over the ground, dead. Or the kids at the maternity unit, body parts flying everywhere. Etc. In the end is too late. Thats irrelevant though Darling, its just my interpretation, nowt happened if i dont want it too. I am a half empty person, a perfectionist. If i see two puppys playing, parrotts squaking, kittens rollicking, that dead woman is still in my head. And i will want those responsible to pay, and they would if i could make it happen. Full marks to the defence secretary re missiles. Id have done it at the start. The middle age woman wanted war there as well. They nearly all did. I have not been to Ukraine to check, but I have not seen one Ukrainian who does not want to kill Russians. These people will all die. It's very sad, but their minds are now trash and full of evil. War is the fault of everyone except those who oppose it, like myself. I'm innocent as I have only ever tried to stand up for peace. Anyone advocating death and destruction is a client of evil, and evil will come and get them too.
This is one of the few politicians who make sense in that part of the world speaking about war.
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Post by piglet on May 29, 2023 12:07:48 GMT
How do you know that?, did you ask her? As for Ukranians wanting to kill Russians, is that impulse without reason? Six million died from starvation under Stalin. Get that?, starvation, its not like you missed a meal, is it?
Your victim blaming, a lackey of Putin.
If i were Ukrainian id pass off six million dead as an oh well, never mind, have another drink. Im being sarcastic. You say you oppose war, you dont condemn Russia at all, but defend it. For gods sake.
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Post by Bentley on May 29, 2023 12:59:40 GMT
"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."
That is essence of evil .
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Post by oracle75 on Jun 1, 2023 8:48:57 GMT
We live in a universe full of duality.
It runs like computers run.
For every yes there is a no. For every existence there is non existence. For every choice you have the possibility of making another one.
Evil is the other choice in the existence of good. You cannot have one without the other.
And unless there is a mental illness involved, good and evil are choices.
However what is initially seen as evil can become a good in hindsight depending on subsequent history.
Example...an attack on a small peaceful village by the Roman army can eventually result in the establishment of a thriving city.
Everything is relative.
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Post by Bentley on Jun 1, 2023 9:02:30 GMT
Fear and greed are the two most potent forces in humanity . The ancients knew this .
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Post by oracle75 on Jun 4, 2023 8:26:29 GMT
The primary drive in all organic forms is for power which has driven devlopment of life since its inception.
The good/evil dichotomy comes in how it is achieved.
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Post by Bentley on Jun 4, 2023 9:06:51 GMT
The primary drive in organic forms is to survive ,
The secondary drive is to procreate .
The concept of ‘ power’ exists in animals that live in social structures .
You won’t find an evil Leopard but you might find a Chimpanzee that shows traits that we might see as evil.
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Post by Orac on Jun 4, 2023 9:27:06 GMT
Power is one of those things. You can't live with it and you can't live without it.
Civilisation is perhaps an attempt to get power into a framework that has edges and limits - power itself is certainly not something that's going to go away
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