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Post by seniorcitizen007 on May 7, 2023 17:40:36 GMT
In the week before the 1992 election, after Kinnock famously celebrated the "coming victory", employers all over the country were telling their workers: "If Labour get in your job's on the line". The public were told that only the rich elite had the resources and skills to bring Britain out of the recession. Kinnock himself said he noticed a lessening of voters' "confidence in the benefits of change" spread like a cloud over the country as election day approached (or words to that effect). There was also widespread "concern" about the cost of supporting the "less fortunate" members of British society ... generated by a BBC documentary that detailed the "cost" to the nation of such unproductive people. If the Conservatives had gone on to win the 1997 election there would probably be far fewer elderly people around today. When, in 1990, my then 70 year old mother suddenly developed severe arthritis in her hands (but was otherwise healthy) her GP said: "You can't expect much in the way of treatment at your age". (We took her to an "alternative" therapist ... who advised a change of diet ... two weeks later her arthritis had magically vanished. She stayed healthy and active (far more active than most people of her age) for another 15 years until steroid treatment for an eye problem caused dementia).
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2023 18:02:11 GMT
Distinctly possible - if so then I wonder what red meat Starmer will throw at the LibDems for their support. A referendum on PR perhaps and then another on EU membership? The former I definitely hope. I wouldnt put the latter past Starmer but suspect both would rather have the PR issue settled before reopening that can of worms. But the Lib Dems have willingly gone back on some of their key pledges before whilst Starmer has a track record of lying to win an election, then doing something completely different that he really wanted to do all along after winning it. So when it comes to trying to predict anything with certainty, all bets are off with those jokers. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 7, 2023 18:09:06 GMT
possibly pacifico. We can see many politicians are sensing something about the political playing field ahead , with both snp and lib dem politicians now talking hung parliament , and the tories realising they might still have a small chance of stopping labour with starmers inept leadership.
labour as we know will climb into bed with anyone for a whiff of power , and through their morals to the wind in the process. England will go ballistic if starmer is propped up by the snp , and im not sure how relaistic the liberals and greens are of catching enough seats to make up the gap between labour being the largest party and a majority.
If Labour do worse than many are expecting they may need both LibDem and SNP support - just think, referendums on PR, on rejoining the EU and Scottish Independence all in the next Parliament..  Let's hope so.  |
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Post by bancroft on May 7, 2023 18:45:07 GMT
In the week before the 1992 election, after Kinnock famously celebrated the "coming victory", employers all over the country were telling their workers: "If Labour get in your job's on the line". The public were told that only the rich elite had the resources and skills to bring Britain out of the recession. Kinnock himself said he noticed a lessening of voters' "confidence in the benefits of change" spread like a cloud over the country as election day approached (or words to that effect). There was also widespread "concern" about the cost of supporting the "less fortunate" members of British society ... generated by a BBC documentary that detailed the "cost" to the nation of such unproductive people. If the Conservatives had gone on to win the 1997 election there would probably be far fewer elderly people around today. When, in 1990, my then 70 year old mother suddenly developed severe arthritis in her hands (but was otherwise healthy) her GP said: "You can't expect much in the way of treatment at your age". (We took her to an "alternative" therapist ... who advised a change of diet ... two weeks later her arthritis had magically vanished. She stayed healthy and active (far more active than most people of her age) for another 15 years until steroid treatment for an eye problem caused dementia). Arthritis is normally about eating too much salt. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2023 19:49:24 GMT
Distinctly possible - if so then I wonder what red meat Starmer will throw at the LibDems for their support. A referendum on PR perhaps and then another on EU membership? Daisy Cooper on Sophie Ridge this morning indicated that voting reform was a high priority, so I think no 1 is likely. I don't see us rejoining the EU anytime soon, but I could see moves towards the single market. You might be right but with a bunch of proven liars it is impossible to be sure. My guess is that some sort of referendum on PR would be the minimum demand. And moving towards the single market highly likely. But I suspect rejoining will not be an issue until after any PR referendum. Were we to get PR I think the parties will wait until a more proportional House gets elected. But what the hell do I know? Because we simply cannot trust the words of any of them. So educated guesses is the best any of us have. |
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Post by see2 on May 7, 2023 19:58:55 GMT
Daisy Cooper on Sophie Ridge this morning indicated that voting reform was a high priority, so I think no 1 is likely. I don't see us rejoining the EU anytime soon, but I could see moves towards the single market. You might be right but with a bunch of proven liars it is impossible to be sure. My guess is that some sort of referendum on PR would be the minimum demand. And moving towards the single market highly likely. But I suspect rejoining will not be an issue until after any PR referendum. Were we to get PR I think the parties will wait until a more proportional House gets elected. But what the hell do I know? Because we simply cannot trust the words of any of them. So educated guesses is the best any of us have. Why would anyone take notice of a "guess" by a liar like yourself? |
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Post by Pacifico on May 7, 2023 21:12:30 GMT
You might be right but with a bunch of proven liars it is impossible to be sure. My guess is that some sort of referendum on PR would be the minimum demand. And moving towards the single market highly likely. But I suspect rejoining will not be an issue until after any PR referendum. Were we to get PR I think the parties will wait until a more proportional House gets elected. But what the hell do I know? Because we simply cannot trust the words of any of them. So educated guesses is the best any of us have. Why would anyone take notice of a "guess" by a liar like yourself? Nah - he is not Keir Starmer so lying is not a requirement. |
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Post by Toreador on May 8, 2023 5:40:01 GMT
In the week before the 1992 election, after Kinnock famously celebrated the "coming victory", employers all over the country were telling their workers: "If Labour get in your job's on the line". The public were told that only the rich elite had the resources and skills to bring Britain out of the recession. Kinnock himself said he noticed a lessening of voters' "confidence in the benefits of change" spread like a cloud over the country as election day approached (or words to that effect). There was also widespread "concern" about the cost of supporting the "less fortunate" members of British society ... generated by a BBC documentary that detailed the "cost" to the nation of such unproductive people. If the Conservatives had gone on to win the 1997 election there would probably be far fewer elderly people around today. When, in 1990, my then 70 year old mother suddenly developed severe arthritis in her hands (but was otherwise healthy) her GP said: "You can't expect much in the way of treatment at your age". (We took her to an "alternative" therapist ... who advised a change of diet ... two weeks later her arthritis had magically vanished. She stayed healthy and active (far more active than most people of her age) for another 15 years until steroid treatment for an eye problem caused dementia). Arthritis is normally about eating too much salt. How come babies are born with it? |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2023 9:12:06 GMT
You might be right but with a bunch of proven liars it is impossible to be sure. My guess is that some sort of referendum on PR would be the minimum demand. And moving towards the single market highly likely. But I suspect rejoining will not be an issue until after any PR referendum. Were we to get PR I think the parties will wait until a more proportional House gets elected. But what the hell do I know? Because we simply cannot trust the words of any of them. So educated guesses is the best any of us have. Why would anyone take notice of a "guess" by a liar like yourself? Just because you dont like the truths I say does not make them lies. I am more honest than any Blairite ever was. You are not even honest with yourself. Any guess you make would be most entertaining in its sycophancy. Please do entertain us with your take on the likelihood of what would happen in the event of a hung parliament. I could do with a laugh. |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2023 9:30:57 GMT
One thing I do suspect. In the event of a hung parliament the Lib Dems would try and insist upon a referendum on PR as a minimum condition. But Starmer and those around him surely know that the greatest threat to the establishment they are a part of and exist to defend is giving a democratic voice to those who oppose it from both left and right. They also surely know that under PR New Labourism would never again obtain a working majority. Shock horror, they might face a perpetual situation where they have to either cooperate with the left they so hate or expose their true colours by allying with the Tories for power. As they are already doing in Scotland in numerous places.
So when the Lib Dems insist on a PR referendum Starmer might well refuse, and form a minority government that would fall within weeks if not days. So we could have another election within weeks of the first one, with Starmer hoping that Labour can gain a majority in another push. But even if they don't and the Tories got back in due to a negative public reaction, they would at least have defended the political and economic status quo.
In essence I fear Starmer and co would rather see a Tory government than concede anything on PR. Labour and Tories are so politically close to each other now that I wouldn't even rule out a grand coalition between the two, which would be sold to us as a coming together for the good of the country, invoking the memory of the WW2 coalition in all likelihood. But in reality it will just be the establishment and their representatives protecting the status quo from us, the people.
Starmer is so desperately eager for power at any cost that we might be tempted to think he'd agree to anything. But clearly he will not do anything the establishment wont accept, however popular, so he has a red line there. Maybe refusing PR is another one? After all the establishment would be more vulnerable to threats of change under PR, and other political players outside the establishments control might gain traction and representation.
I am torn. If PR is the price of Lib Dem cooperation, would Starmer pay that price for power, knowing that never again would New Labourism get a majority? Or would he prefer to work with the Tories, or risk another election, to prevent it? I hope for the former but do fear the latter.
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Post by see2 on May 8, 2023 10:43:46 GMT
Why would anyone take notice of a "guess" by a liar like yourself? Nah - he is not Keir Starmer so lying is not a requirement. So why are you posting your twisted insinuating lie above? |
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Post by see2 on May 8, 2023 11:05:51 GMT
Why would anyone take notice of a "guess" by a liar like yourself? Just because you dont like the truths I say does not make them lies. I am more honest than any Blairite ever was. You are not even honest with yourself. Any guess you make would be most entertaining in its sycophancy. Please do entertain us with your take on the likelihood of what would happen in the event of a hung parliament. I could do with a laugh. You will need to learn there is a real world outside of your self-needy hard line political box before you will even begin to understand the word honest. I certainly do not accept your version of the truth about Starmer, neither would any other reasonable moderate individual who reads your posts. So you add another lie to your list of lies you have posted about myself, just confirming that you are a liar, but you really didn't need to prove it. Go and giggle in your box at your self entertainment, meanwhile I'll have a chuckle at another of your nonsense post |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2023 11:11:00 GMT
Just because you dont like the truths I say does not make them lies. I am more honest than any Blairite ever was. You are not even honest with yourself. Any guess you make would be most entertaining in its sycophancy. Please do entertain us with your take on the likelihood of what would happen in the event of a hung parliament. I could do with a laugh. You will need to learn there is a real world outside of your self-needy hard line political box before you will even begin to understand the word honest. I certainly do not accept your version of the truth about Starmer, neither would any other reasonable moderate individual who reads your posts. So you add another lie to your list of lies you have posted about myself, just confirming that you are a liar, but you really didn't need to prove it. Go and giggle in your box at your self entertainment, meanwhile I'll have a chuckle at another of your nonsense post Thanks for the laugh. Knew you wouldnt disappoint though you are ever increasingly sounding like a stuck record. As a response all you deserve for that effort is for me to pull my jeans and underwear down and to moon at you. Sometimes actions do indeed speak louder than words. lol |
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Post by johnofgwent on May 8, 2023 11:16:47 GMT
We all seem to be being gradually driven to the point where we conclude no one with a chance of winning under our current system is actually worth voting for, and many therefore conclude that democracy itself is not fit for purpose. The ever growing and hardening disconnect between ever larger sections of the public and the democratic process is worrying but the politicians themselves are making it happen. The foundations are potentially being laid for some kind of future authoritarian state if faith in democracy itself collapses. And such things never end well for the people in the end.
I completely agree. I elsewhere I said (and was criticised for it) that I don't believe that I've ever lived in a democracy. And I stand by that. Last time around, we voted Tory and got New Labour. This time around, the electorate will allegedly punish (Tory) New Labour by voting in (Labour) New Labour. And nothing will change. They are a consensus and if you disagree with that consensus, you have nowhere (well, nowhere with a cat in hell's chance) to place your vote. We are sleepwalking towards a 1984 scenario, yet most people are still occupied with the faux Punch & Judy show of fptp politics.
But what do you mean by ‘a democracy’ I’ve said here and elsewhere, backed up by facts and figures held formerly at Keele University where they were collected by the staff teaching various politics related subjects and now acaikabke on wikipedia citing that dept as the source, that a huge number of constituencies are rigged to have the electorate return a result whereby if you do not share the politics of tbe sitting MP you have no voice. Major’s seat in Huntingdon, Michael Foot’s in Ebbw Vale before the Peter Law dabacle, Kinnock’s seat in Bedwellty niw the Honourable Member for Grubby Underpant’ seat in Islwyn, Clement Freud’s seat in Ely, Paddy Ashdown’s, Charles Kennedy’s These are all examples where the sitting MP’s seat winning margin is weighed not counted. My own constituency Newport East is another. The powers that be are content with this as it means they only need to persuade 20-50 marginals. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 8, 2023 11:24:06 GMT
I completely agree. I elsewhere I said (and was criticised for it) that I don't believe that I've ever lived in a democracy. And I stand by that. Last time around, we voted Tory and got New Labour. This time around, the electorate will allegedly punish (Tory) New Labour by voting in (Labour) New Labour. And nothing will change. They are a consensus and if you disagree with that consensus, you have nowhere (well, nowhere with a cat in hell's chance) to place your vote. We are sleepwalking towards a 1984 scenario, yet most people are still occupied with the faux Punch & Judy show of fptp politics.
But what do you mean by ‘a democracy’ I’ve said here and elsewhere, backed up by facts and figures held formerly at Keele University where they were collected by the staff teaching various politics related subjects and now acaikabke on wikipedia citing that dept as the source, that a huge number of constituencies are rigged to have the electorate return a result whereby if you do not share the politics of tbe sitting MP you have no voice. Major’s seat in Huntingdon, Michael Foot’s in Ebbw Vale before the Peter Law dabacle, Kinnock’s seat in Bedwellty niw the Honourable Member for Grubby Underpant’ seat in Islwyn, Clement Freud’s seat in Ely, Paddy Ashdown’s, Charles Kennedy’s These are all examples where the sitting MP’s seat winning margin is weighed not counted. My own constituency Newport East is another. The powers that be are content with this as it means they only need to persuade 20-50 marginals. Absolutely. Unless you live in a marginal, your vote is virtually worthless.
I am now (with reservations) coming to the conclusion that PR offers the only chance of any real democracy.
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