|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 17:59:58 GMT
You were talking about specifically about Marx's theories of history. Now you are asking about 'class struggle' as a vague generality. Can you take a step back and clarify what you are asking? Okay, I'll even add a little more. Do populists want the same kind of voting system as Marx set out for his socialist utopia? That is, do they want direct democracy? Do populists want more control of the means of production? That is, do they want more control over the production of housing and the building of hospitals, etc? Do you agree that there has been a steady increase in workers' rights? Do you see any evidence of class struggle in recent years? 1 No (not as a generality) 2 Too varied to answer sensibly (same as above). 3 No. There has been a long term historic upward trend (parallel with general wealth) and a recent (two decades or so) dip. 4 re my earlier query about what you mean exactly by the term. |
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on May 3, 2023 18:03:00 GMT
Seriously? You can't think of a single famine that occurred in the UK since 1770? Ooo, I think I know this one sir. Does it have anything to do with potatoes? |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on May 3, 2023 18:04:13 GMT
The problem is that communism has to be imposed and it needs a totalitarian state to impose it . Then it doesn’t work, then it becomes a totalitarian quasi capitalist state or a capitalist democracy.Unless it’s Cuba. Ever been to Cuba? It’s a shithole . LOL! How can be Marxism be imposed if it has direct democracy? Maybe you're confusing Marxism with some sort of pretend communism like Stalinism or Maoism. And, yes, I imagine that Cuba is a shithole. What was it like before the 'communists' took over? A paradise? I’m confusing nothing . Communism needs to be imposed and dissidents need to be silenced. Russia and China were not pretend communism they were default communism. Cuba has had about 80 years to become a Marxist utopia. It’s a dump and most people in Havana are either hustlers or poor in my experience . I spoke to a few and they hate , fucking hate the government. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 18:09:40 GMT
Okay, I'll even add a little more. Do populists want the same kind of voting system as Marx set out for his socialist utopia? That is, do they want direct democracy? Do populists want more control of the means of production? That is, do they want more control over the production of housing and the building of hospitals, etc? Do you agree that there has been a steady increase in workers' rights? Do you see any evidence of class struggle in recent years? 1 No (not as a generality) 2 Too varied to answer sensibly (same as above). 3 No. There has been a long term historic upward trend (parallel with general wealth) and a recent (two decades or so) dip. 4 re my earlier query about what you mean exactly by the term. Re number 1: I'll use Vinny as representative of the populist view, because he is the most vocal. You obviously haven't been reading his threads (and who could blame you?). He claims to be a populist. He wants direct democracy, as do many others around here (see all the posts praising Switzerland). Vinny has even gone so far as to describe those who want representational democracy as 'representational fascists'. Re number 2: I would suggest that the populist right has been calling for more state aid for industry, more hospitals, etc. As far as state aid is concerned, see Vinny's posts. Re number 3: I don't see how you can deny that workers' rights have been steadily increasing. Re number 4: Do you at least accept that there has been a massive increase in the language of class struggle? Or do you claim not to have heard any talk in recent years about the people taking back control from the 'elites'? |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 18:10:29 GMT
Seriously? You can't think of a single famine that occurred in the UK since 1770? Ooo, I think I know this one sir. Does it have anything to do with potatoes? Yeah. Doc seems to think that the UK wasn't a capitalist country at the time. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 18:12:42 GMT
LOL! How can be Marxism be imposed if it has direct democracy? Maybe you're confusing Marxism with some sort of pretend communism like Stalinism or Maoism. And, yes, I imagine that Cuba is a shithole. What was it like before the 'communists' took over? A paradise? I’m confusing nothing . Communism needs to be imposed and dissidents need to be silenced. Russia and China were not pretend communism they were default communism. Cuba has had about 80 years to become a Marxist utopia. It’s a dump and most people in Havana are either hustlers or poor in my experience . I spoke to a few and they hate , fucking hate the government. Where was Marxism imposed? |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 18:15:36 GMT
LOL! How can be Marxism be imposed if it has direct democracy? Maybe you're confusing Marxism with some sort of pretend communism like Stalinism or Maoism. And, yes, I imagine that Cuba is a shithole. What was it like before the 'communists' took over? A paradise? I’m confusing nothing . Communism needs to be imposed and dissidents need to be silenced. Russia and China were not pretend communism they were default communism. Cuba has had about 80 years to become a Marxist utopia. It’s a dump and most people in Havana are either hustlers or poor in my experience . I spoke to a few and they hate , fucking hate the government. Sorry to break the news to you, but the UK was a dump 70 years after capitalism was introduced. In fact, wasn't there a famine around that time? Wasn't a large part of the female population selling their bodies on the streets just to eat? Weren't families living in workhouses or slums? Going further afield, weren't Indians being strapped to cannons and then blown to pieces? |
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on May 3, 2023 18:17:20 GMT
Ooo, I think I know this one sir. Does it have anything to do with potatoes? Yeah. Doc seems to think that the UK wasn't a capitalist country at the time. A million Irish men women and children were dying at the time our rulers were building the Great Exhibition which was as capitalistic as it gets. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 18:30:18 GMT
1 No (not as a generality) 2 Too varied to answer sensibly (same as above). 3 No. There has been a long term historic upward trend (parallel with general wealth) and a recent (two decades or so) dip. 4 re my earlier query about what you mean exactly by the term. Re number 1: I'll use Vinny as representative of the populist view, because he is the most vocal. You obviously haven't been reading his threads (and who could blame you?). He claims to be a populist. He wants direct democracy, as do many others around here (see all the posts praising Switzerland). Vinny has even gone so far as to describe those who want representational democracy as 'representational fascists'. Re number 2: I would suggest that the populist right has been calling for more state aid for industry, more hospitals, etc. As far as state aid is concerned, see Vinny's posts. Re number 3: I don't see how you can deny that workers' rights have been steadily increasing. Re number 4: Do you at least accept that there has been a massive increase in the language of class struggle? Or do you claim not to have heard any talk in recent years about the people taking back control from the 'elites'? 1 I don't think Vinny is representative of current populist trends (the recent infamous surge in populism). I myself would barely count him as having a populist opinion / world view. 2 I don't se Vinny as populist right and I don't see wanting government resources redirected as equivalent to wanting more control of resources. Those are two different wishes. 3 It's another conversation but my view is that we are now on the downslope. 4 Again - you have switched from the specific (Marx's theory of history) to a vague generality. You also refuse to clarify. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 18:37:08 GMT
Re number 1: I'll use Vinny as representative of the populist view, because he is the most vocal. You obviously haven't been reading his threads (and who could blame you?). He claims to be a populist. He wants direct democracy, as do many others around here (see all the posts praising Switzerland). Vinny has even gone so far as to describe those who want representational democracy as 'representational fascists'. Re number 2: I would suggest that the populist right has been calling for more state aid for industry, more hospitals, etc. As far as state aid is concerned, see Vinny's posts. Re number 3: I don't see how you can deny that workers' rights have been steadily increasing. Re number 4: Do you at least accept that there has been a massive increase in the language of class struggle? Or do you claim not to have heard any talk in recent years about the people taking back control from the 'elites'? 1 I don't think Vinny is representative of current populist trends (the recent infamous surge in populism). I myself would barely count him as having a populist opinion / world view. 2 I don't se Vinny as populist right and I don't see wanting government resources redirected as equivalent to wanting more control of resources. Those are two different wishes. 3 It's another conversation but my view is that we are now on the downslope. 4 Again - you have switched from the specific (Marx's theory of history) to a vague generality. You also refuse to clarify. I think Vinny would be very disappointed to hear he isn't representative of the populist view. Workers' rights keep increasing. You only have to look at the statute books. Coming back to Vinny, he has been calling for the government to increase state aid to industry. I don't know what to say if you don't see such demands as a bid to control the means of production. Marx said that all history is the history of class struggle. If Marx is wrong, maybe you could explain recent history. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 18:57:06 GMT
1 I don't think Vinny is representative of current populist trends (the recent infamous surge in populism). I myself would barely count him as having a populist opinion / world view. 2 I don't se Vinny as populist right and I don't see wanting government resources redirected as equivalent to wanting more control of resources. Those are two different wishes. 3 It's another conversation but my view is that we are now on the downslope. 4 Again - you have switched from the specific (Marx's theory of history) to a vague generality. You also refuse to clarify. I think Vinny would be very disappointed to hear he isn't representative of the populist view. Workers' rights keep increasing. You only have to look at the statute books. I don't know what to say if you think that those calling for their elected representatives to interfere with the means of production via state aid, etc., aren't making claims on the means of production. Marx said that all history is the history of class struggle. If Marx is wrong, maybe you could explain recent history. I'm sure Vinny will live happily with this. We disagree on a wide range of topics. The number of items on the statute book aren't a good guide to rights - in fact, it is more often a converse relationship. I didn't say it wasn't. I said that wanting government resources redirected isn't the same as wanting (say) increased worker control of production. Marx described a conflict between the interests capital / employers and labour. I think it is clear now that this is not really how the world works in reality. One of the reasons the left have gone into bizarre, rubber-room contortions in the last couple of decades is that they can't make this world view sound credible anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 19:00:39 GMT
I think Vinny would be very disappointed to hear he isn't representative of the populist view. Workers' rights keep increasing. You only have to look at the statute books. I don't know what to say if you think that those calling for their elected representatives to interfere with the means of production via state aid, etc., aren't making claims on the means of production. Marx said that all history is the history of class struggle. If Marx is wrong, maybe you could explain recent history. I'm sure Vinny will live happily with this. We disagree on a wide range of topics. The number of items on the statute book aren't a good guide to rights - in fact, it is more often a converse relationship. I didn't say it wasn't. I said that wanting government resources redirected isn't the same as wanting (say) increased worker control of production. Marx described a conflict between the interests capital / employers and labour. I think it is clear now that this is not really how the world works in reality. One of the reasons the left have gone into bizarre, rubber-room contortions in the last couple of decades is that they can't make this world view sound credible anymore. Most of the above is opinion. It wouldn't advance things if I were to offer a mere contrary opinion as a rebuttal. Moving on to what is more than mere opinion in your post: class struggle is obviously an element of how the world works. I believe you made comments to that effect quite recently, saying that a lot of the current division in the UK was a class conflict. What 'rubber-room' contortions are you talking about? |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 19:34:59 GMT
I'm sure Vinny will live happily with this. We disagree on a wide range of topics. The number of items on the statute book aren't a good guide to rights - in fact, it is more often a converse relationship. I didn't say it wasn't. I said that wanting government resources redirected isn't the same as wanting (say) increased worker control of production. Marx described a conflict between the interests capital / employers and labour. I think it is clear now that this is not really how the world works in reality. One of the reasons the left have gone into bizarre, rubber-room contortions in the last couple of decades is that they can't make this world view sound credible anymore. Most of the above is opinion. It wouldn't advance things if I were to offer a mere contrary opinion as a rebuttal. Moving on to what is more than mere opinion in your post: class struggle is obviously an element of how the world works. I believe you made comments to that effect quite recently, saying that a lot of the current division in the UK was a class conflict. What 'rubber-room' contortions are you talking about? I thought you were trying to rebut me? My original statement was that Marx's notion of ideal social organisation (as you outlined) doesn't function. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on May 3, 2023 20:25:28 GMT
You were talking about specifically about Marx's theories of history. Now you are asking about 'class struggle' as a vague generality. Can you take a step back and clarify what you are asking? Okay, I'll even add a little more. Do populists want the same kind of voting system as Marx set out for his socialist utopia? That is, do they want direct democracy? Do populists want more control of the means of production? That is, do they want more control over the production of housing and the building of hospitals, etc? Do you agree that there has been a steady increase in workers' rights? Do you see any evidence of class struggle in recent years? Sounds like your version of Marxism led to Brexit. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 3, 2023 20:37:07 GMT
Most of the above is opinion. It wouldn't advance things if I were to offer a mere contrary opinion as a rebuttal. Moving on to what is more than mere opinion in your post: class struggle is obviously an element of how the world works. I believe you made comments to that effect quite recently, saying that a lot of the current division in the UK was a class conflict. What 'rubber-room' contortions are you talking about? I thought you were trying to rebut me? My original statement was that Marx's notion of ideal social organisation (as you outlined) doesn't function. The mass-murder of millions of people in acts of democide is a slight giveaway. |
|
