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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:26:59 GMT
We don't need to agree on this. Either you see that there is a socialist trajectory or you don't. I can't fathom how anyone could deny the continuing progress in workers' rights, but it would appear to be the case that some do. That's okay. Nobody needs to acknowledge it in order for it to be a fact. It has only been short conversation and that's the second time you appear to have replaced what I'm saying with something else entirely. Silly. Well, answer my question, then. Do you see any class struggle at the moment? Bear in mind comments you've made on this forum in the recent past. |
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Post by Bentley on May 3, 2023 17:30:31 GMT
Communism is shit. There are no examples of successful Communism. LOL! Show me examples of successful capitalism after 70 years. When did the capitalist era begin? Was it around 1770? So, 70 years after that would be 1840. Compare and contrast living and working conditions in the UK in 1840 with living and working conditions in Russia after 70 years. Go on. Compare the conditions of the average Brit in 1840 with the conditions of the average Russian in 1977. As awful as what happened in Russia was, their 'communism' did more for the average person after 70 years than capitalism did for the average person after 70 years. Strawman. You have no examples of successful communism. You falsely use the fact that most communist counties do not stay communist for long as an argument supporting communism. You claim that Marx was correct when he said that communism would succeed in advanced countries but have no example to post and ignore the point that advanced countries would not need communism . When that doesn’t work you change the goalposts . Then comes the obfuscation . There has been no examples of long term successful communist societies . There are no examples of an advanced country becoming a Communist society and flourishing . |
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Post by Pacifico on May 3, 2023 17:31:19 GMT
Sorry - burst out laughing at the idea that there would be a surplus of anything except hunger under Marxism..  You really can't think of a single instance where British people died of hunger in their millions under early capitalism? No - do share. |
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Post by Bentley on May 3, 2023 17:33:11 GMT
Kulaks we’re doing OK until the Communists killed them. Yeah Marx envisaged communism working in a society that was doing fine without Communism. ffs😂 And how about those killed by capitalism? How about the millions of people who died of starvation all around the world because food prices were kept artificially high by capitalism? What about the millions of people who died of starvation in the UK? What about turning millions of Chinese people into drug addicts? Imperialist wars fought for markets? Thousands of people hanged for minor offenses against property? What about the widespread prostitution in the UK? The slums, whole families living in a single room, or worse still, separated in workhouses? Explain how early capitalism was any more humane than early communism. Whataboutery . Find me an example of a successful communist country. Find me an example of advanced country adopting communism and flourishing. You can’t . So you obfuscate and wriggle. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:34:54 GMT
LOL! Show me examples of successful capitalism after 70 years. When did the capitalist era begin? Was it around 1770? So, 70 years after that would be 1840. Compare and contrast living and working conditions in the UK in 1840 with living and working conditions in Russia after 70 years. Go on. Compare the conditions of the average Brit in 1840 with the conditions of the average Russian in 1977. As awful as what happened in Russia was, their 'communism' did more for the average person after 70 years than capitalism did for the average person after 70 years. Strawman. You have no examples of successful communism. You falsely use the fact that most communist counties do not stay communist for long as an argument supporting communism. You claim that Marx was correct when he said that communism would succeed in advanced countries but have no example to post and ignore the point that advanced countries would not need communism . When that doesn’t work you change the goalposts . Then comes the obfuscation . There has been no examples of long term successful communist societies . There are no examples of an advanced country becoming a Communist society and flourishing . Bullshit! The mockery of communism that occurred in Russia produced more for the average Russian after 70 years than capitalism produced for the average Brit after 70 years. Compare the standard of living in Russia in 1977 with that in the UK in 1840. And, yes, Russia turned to late capitalism. Who wouldn't? Late capitalism is far superior to early capitalism or early communism. That's because late capitalism has been the beneficiary of the socialist trend Marx predicted. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:35:51 GMT
You really can't think of a single instance where British people died of hunger in their millions under early capitalism? No - do share. Seriously? You can't think of a single famine that occurred in the UK since 1770? |
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Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 17:40:14 GMT
It has only been short conversation and that's the second time you appear to have replaced what I'm saying with something else entirely. Silly. Well, answer my question, then. Do you see any class struggle at the moment? Bear in mind comments you've made on this forum in the recent past. You were talking about specifically about Marx's theories of history. Now you are asking about 'class struggle' as a vague generality. Can you take a step back and clarify what you are asking? |
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Post by Bentley on May 3, 2023 17:42:20 GMT
Strawman. You have no examples of successful communism. You falsely use the fact that most communist counties do not stay communist for long as an argument supporting communism. You claim that Marx was correct when he said that communism would succeed in advanced countries but have no example to post and ignore the point that advanced countries would not need communism . When that doesn’t work you change the goalposts . Then comes the obfuscation . There has been no examples of long term successful communist societies . There are no examples of an advanced country becoming a Communist society and flourishing . Bullshit! The mockery of communism that occurred in Russia produced more for the average Russian after 70 years than capitalism produced for the average Brit after 70 years. And, yes, Russia turned to late capitalism. Who wouldn't? Late capitalism is far superior to early capitalism or early communism. That's because late capitalism has been the beneficiary of the socialist trend Marx predicted. Bullshit . You admit that non communist countries last longer than communist countries , You admit that non communist societies can lead to improving lifestyles than communist societies . You are arguing against yourself but either can’t see it or wont admit it. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:44:02 GMT
Well, answer my question, then. Do you see any class struggle at the moment? Bear in mind comments you've made on this forum in the recent past. You were talking about specifically about Marx's theories of history. Now you are asking about 'class struggle' as a vague generality. Can you take a step back and clarify what you are asking? Okay, I'll even add a little more. Do populists want the same kind of voting system as Marx set out for his socialist utopia? That is, do they want direct democracy? Do populists want more control of the means of production? That is, do they want more control over the production of housing and the building of hospitals, etc? Do you agree that there has been a steady increase in workers' rights? Do you see any evidence of class struggle in recent years? |
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Post by sandypine on May 3, 2023 17:44:58 GMT
Strawman. You have no examples of successful communism. You falsely use the fact that most communist counties do not stay communist for long as an argument supporting communism. You claim that Marx was correct when he said that communism would succeed in advanced countries but have no example to post and ignore the point that advanced countries would not need communism . When that doesn’t work you change the goalposts . Then comes the obfuscation . There has been no examples of long term successful communist societies . There are no examples of an advanced country becoming a Communist society and flourishing . Bullshit! The mockery of communism that occurred in Russia produced more for the average Russian after 70 years than capitalism produced for the average Brit after 70 years. And, yes, Russia turned to late capitalism. Who wouldn't? Late capitalism is far superior to early capitalism or early communism. That's because late capitalism has been the beneficiary of the socialist trend Marx predicted. Only because they starved to death millions of people in the bloodlands of Ukraine and Belarus as well as having some 20 million die in the war. If the price of advance over 70 years is goodbye to some 20% of the population then perhaps the cost is too high. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:45:02 GMT
Bullshit! The mockery of communism that occurred in Russia produced more for the average Russian after 70 years than capitalism produced for the average Brit after 70 years. And, yes, Russia turned to late capitalism. Who wouldn't? Late capitalism is far superior to early capitalism or early communism. That's because late capitalism has been the beneficiary of the socialist trend Marx predicted. Bullshit . You admit that non communist countries last longer than communist countries , You admit that non communist societies can lead to improving lifestyles than communist societies . You are arguing against yourself but either can’t see it or wont admit it. I admit that late capitalism is closer to Marx's ideal than early 'communism' of the kind seen in Russia and the Far East was/is. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:45:57 GMT
Bullshit! The mockery of communism that occurred in Russia produced more for the average Russian after 70 years than capitalism produced for the average Brit after 70 years. And, yes, Russia turned to late capitalism. Who wouldn't? Late capitalism is far superior to early capitalism or early communism. That's because late capitalism has been the beneficiary of the socialist trend Marx predicted. Only because they starved to death millions of people in the bloodlands of Ukraine and Belarus as well as having some 20 million die in the war. If the price of advance over 70 years is goodbye to some 20% of the population then perhaps the cost is too high. Yes, early communism was just as savage as early capitalism. |
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Post by sandypine on May 3, 2023 17:49:27 GMT
Only because they starved to death millions of people in the bloodlands of Ukraine and Belarus as well as having some 20 million die in the war. If the price of advance over 70 years is goodbye to some 20% of the population then perhaps the cost is too high. Yes, early communism was just as savage as early capitalism. But we are talking about the 20th century and Russia was in many ways a modern country. |
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Post by Bentley on May 3, 2023 17:52:41 GMT
Bullshit . You admit that non communist countries last longer than communist countries , You admit that non communist societies can lead to improving lifestyles than communist societies . You are arguing against yourself but either can’t see it or wont admit it. I admit that late capitalism is closer to Marx's ideal than early 'communism' of the kind seen in Russia and the Far East was/is. The problem is that communism has to be imposed and it needs a totalitarian state to impose it . Then it doesn’t work, then it becomes a totalitarian quasi capitalist state or a capitalist democracy.Unless it’s Cuba. Ever been to Cuba? It’s a shithole . |
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Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 17:57:29 GMT
I admit that late capitalism is closer to Marx's ideal than early 'communism' of the kind seen in Russia and the Far East was/is. The problem is that communism has to be imposed and it needs a totalitarian state to impose it . Then it doesn’t work, then it becomes a totalitarian quasi capitalist state or a capitalist democracy.Unless it’s Cuba. Ever been to Cuba? It’s a shithole . LOL! How can be Marxism be imposed if it has direct democracy? Maybe you're confusing Marxism with some sort of pretend communism like Stalinism or Maoism. And, yes, I imagine that Cuba is a shithole. What was it like before the 'communists' took over? A paradise? |
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