|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 9:42:41 GMT
In fairness, you said that Marxism doesn't work. Marx's predictions are coming true. It's undeniable that workers are accruing more and more rights. It's not unrealistic to assume that the current trajectory will be maintained. Marx did note that 'capitalism' does work. However, it's a self-evident reality that's pretty hard to deny if you want to be taken seriously. My claim is that the alternative model (you outlined) doesn't work Of course, he claimed that capitalism existed. He also claimed that it 'worked'. But he would have said that it worked for capitalists, not the workers. At the same time, he said it would become increasingly more socialist and more favourable for workers, until eventually workers would take over the means of production. Taking over the means of production means that the workers would decide what is produced. That is what the populists seek, too. They want to see the production of more housing and more hospitals, etc. Populism also wants control of the means of production.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 9:43:50 GMT
Populism is a name given to the opinion that the elites or powerful have become so corrupt/dysfunctional/oppressive/unworthy and they need to be cleared changed out. It is not in itself a theory of social organisation. Populism is Marx's observation that all history is the history of class struggle writ large. It is one class versus another - the people versus the elite. It is beyond ironic that those who deny that Marx was right are themselves the strongest evidence that he was right. It isn't ironic at all, you are just conflating things. 1) Marx's theory of class struggle. 2) The opinion that the elites have become corrupt and unworthy.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 9:45:49 GMT
Populism is Marx's observation that all history is the history of class struggle writ large. It is one class versus another - the people versus the elite. It is beyond ironic that those who deny that Marx was right are themselves the strongest evidence that he was right. It isn't ironic at all, you are just conflating things. 1) Marx's theory of class struggle. 2) The opinion that the elites have become corrupt and unworthy. I think that the theory that those who are in charge are corrupt and unworthy has been the basis of class struggle since it began. I don't imagine slaves thought their masters were moral exemplars.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 3, 2023 10:16:57 GMT
It isn't ironic at all, you are just conflating things. 1) Marx's theory of class struggle. 2) The opinion that the elites have become corrupt and unworthy. I think that the theory that those who are in charge are corrupt and unworthy has been the basis of class struggle since it began. I don't imagine slaves thought their masters were moral exemplars. The difference between an opinion that a person is corrupt and a social theory that he must be.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 10:18:57 GMT
I think that the theory that those who are in charge are corrupt and unworthy has been the basis of class struggle since it began. I don't imagine slaves thought their masters were moral exemplars. The difference between an opinion that a person is corrupt and a social theory that he must be. Don't you see class struggle in the populist position that the people should take control away from the elite? It absolutely beggars belief that you don't.
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on May 3, 2023 10:19:52 GMT
You're conflating Marx's vision with 21st capitalism and claiming Marx was right. lol Capitalism is still the dominant economic system that has evolved throughout the decades and rid itself of the worst aspects that Marx would have witnessed. Improvement on labour standards, child laws, work and safety standards, minimum wage et al. Aren't thanks to Karl Marx like you believe. Lol. That is an evolutionary process that of refining and retuning a system where a balance is found and ongoing. Nothing about Marxism has come to fruition. There's been no 'destruction' of capitalism but merely an evolution of it. There will still be private property, money, profit and competition. The Soviet Union which tested his theory in the real world failed. China, well that is now a hybrid model where capitalism is a key functional component of China's economic success. You seem to be saying that for Marxism to be achieved as per Marx believed, it needed capitalism in the first place to make money and wealth then for that system to eat itself in order for Marxism to achieve its aim? Lol. Not a very good system - sounds more parasitic than systemic. The Soviets tried as best they could with what they had and it utterly and miserably failed, and like I said, China has lurched more and more to capitalism leaving Marx's theory as failed in practice. Sigh! I stopped reading when you said that the changes in labour conditions are not 'thanks to Karl Marx.' That's like saying that evolution isn't thanks to Darwin, or gravity isn't thanks to Newton. It's pointless trying to explain anything to people like you, Bubbles. Lol. People like you who thank the EU for the UK's worker's rights even though the UK had those rights before it joined the EU. You talk claptrap. Because capitalism evolves and refines itself where money, private property and competition still reside, you believe improved labour conditions are all thanks to the wittering's of Karl Marx in the 19th century. Are you really saying that without Marx's vision in the 19th century capitalism could not have evolved to refine itself and produce better working conditions for people in the 21st century - is that what your latest political/social/cultural escapade leads you to believe? I think you want attention.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 10:22:43 GMT
Sigh! I stopped reading when you said that the changes in labour conditions are not 'thanks to Karl Marx.' That's like saying that evolution isn't thanks to Darwin, or gravity isn't thanks to Newton. It's pointless trying to explain anything to people like you, Bubbles. Lol. People like you who thank the EU for the UK's worker's rights even though the UK had those rights before it joined the EU. You talk claptrap. Because capitalism evolves and refines itself where money, private property and competition still reside, you believe improved labour conditions are all thanks to the wittering's of Karl Marx in the 19th century. Are you really saying that without Marx's vision in the 19th century capitalism could not have evolved to refine itself and produce better working conditions for people in the 21st century - is that what your latest political/social/cultural escapade leads you to believe? I think you want attention. Once again, you simply don't understand the discussion. Darwin had a theory of the evolution of species. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. Similarly, Marx had a theory of evolution of societies. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. The facts identified by Darwin and Marx would hold true even if neither Darwin nor Marx had ever been born. To talk of Marx or Darwin having a 'plan' is just nonsense. They were making empirically verifiable observations, not plans. This discussion is over your head, Bubbles.
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on May 3, 2023 10:27:37 GMT
Lol. People like you who thank the EU for the UK's worker's rights even though the UK had those rights before it joined the EU. You talk claptrap. Because capitalism evolves and refines itself where money, private property and competition still reside, you believe improved labour conditions are all thanks to the wittering's of Karl Marx in the 19th century. Are you really saying that without Marx's vision in the 19th century capitalism could not have evolved to refine itself and produce better working conditions for people in the 21st century - is that what your latest political/social/cultural escapade leads you to believe? I think you want attention. Once again, you simply don't understand the discussion. Darwin had a theory of evolution of species. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. Similarly, Marx had a theory of evolution of society. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. This discussion is over your head, Bubbles. How can the discussion be over my head Mr. Intelligentsia when you're the one sat there saying that human society is currently on the trajectory of heading towards some Marxist Utopia you fruitcake?
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 10:30:10 GMT
Once again, you simply don't understand the discussion. Darwin had a theory of evolution of species. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. Similarly, Marx had a theory of evolution of society. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. This discussion is over your head, Bubbles. How can the discussion be over my head Mr. Intelligentsia when you're the one sat there saying that human society is currently on the trajectory of heading towards some Marxist Utopia you fruitcake? Yes, of the two of us, I'm the one saying that late capitalism looks nothing like early capitalism, that it has followed the trajectory Marx predicted. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that children are still being sent up chimneys.
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on May 3, 2023 10:31:58 GMT
Lol. People like you who thank the EU for the UK's worker's rights even though the UK had those rights before it joined the EU. You talk claptrap. Because capitalism evolves and refines itself where money, private property and competition still reside, you believe improved labour conditions are all thanks to the wittering's of Karl Marx in the 19th century. Are you really saying that without Marx's vision in the 19th century capitalism could not have evolved to refine itself and produce better working conditions for people in the 21st century - is that what your latest political/social/cultural escapade leads you to believe? I think you want attention. Once again, you simply don't understand the discussion. Darwin had a theory of the evolution of species. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. Similarly, Marx had a theory of evolution of societies. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. The facts identified by Darwin and Marx would hold true even if neither Darwin nor Marx had ever been born. To talk of Marx or Darwin having a 'plan' is just nonsense. They were making empirically verifiable observations, not plans. This discussion is over your head, Bubbles. He didn't have a plan, he believed that oppressed workers would overthrow capitalists and take control over the means of production bringing with it a classless society of shared ownership. No money, no private property and absolutely no competition. And you think what he thought is close to coming true!
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on May 3, 2023 10:35:25 GMT
How can the discussion be over my head Mr. Intelligentsia when you're the one sat there saying that human society is currently on the trajectory of heading towards some Marxist Utopia you fruitcake? Yes, of the two of us, I'm the one saying that late capitalism looks nothing like early capitalism, that it has followed the trajectory Marx predicted. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that children are still being sent up chimneys. Marx predicted an extreme end to capitalism on that trajectory. So far his predictions are wrong and haven't been fulfilled.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 10:39:49 GMT
Once again, you simply don't understand the discussion. Darwin had a theory of the evolution of species. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. Similarly, Marx had a theory of evolution of societies. His 'witterings' about evolution won't stop evolution. Nor do they mean evolution didn't happen. The facts identified by Darwin and Marx would hold true even if neither Darwin nor Marx had ever been born. To talk of Marx or Darwin having a 'plan' is just nonsense. They were making empirically verifiable observations, not plans. This discussion is over your head, Bubbles. He didn't have a plan, he believed that oppressed workers would overthrow capitalists and take control over the means of production bringing with it a classless society of shared ownership. No money, no private property and absolutely no competition. And you think what he thought is close to coming true! Marx pointed out that all societies evolve along socialist lines. He thought that capitalism would evolve too. Like Darwin, he had a theory of evolution. The difference was that his theory related to societies, not species. Do I look at conditions that exist for workers today and say that they are in the state of evolution Marx recognised. Yes, I do. I think it's undeniable that workers have better conditions today than they did in Marx's era. You obviously don't. That's fine. Nobody has any expectations of you, Bubbles.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on May 3, 2023 10:51:14 GMT
Not sure what you think that has to do with Socialism. Working conditions in America are far better now than they were in the 19th Century - next uyou will be telling us that the US is Socialist paradise. Socialism has gone backwards in countries across the globe in the last 50 years - are you sure you have the foggiest about what Socialism really is? You can always be relied upon to misunderstand, Doc. Marx and Engels said that communism would occur with or without a revolution. They maintained that capitalism would become increasingly more socialist over time, until, eventually, a democratic communist state evolved. Maybe, you can't see that capitalism has become more socialist. Maybe it's not obvious to you that modern day workers have much better lifestyles in late capitalism than was the case in early capitalism. I really don't know. But I don't think it's controversial that capitalism has been on a socialist trajectory since its inception. You dont think its controversial because you have no idea what you are talking about. You ascribe every improvement in working conditions as a Socialist action, which is plainly bonkers. The easy example is Henry Ford's $5 a Day Wages - he didnt decide to pay that as part of some Socialist comradeship, he paid it because the capitalist in him saw that it would make him more money.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 3, 2023 10:54:12 GMT
You can always be relied upon to misunderstand, Doc. Marx and Engels said that communism would occur with or without a revolution. They maintained that capitalism would become increasingly more socialist over time, until, eventually, a democratic communist state evolved. Maybe, you can't see that capitalism has become more socialist. Maybe it's not obvious to you that modern day workers have much better lifestyles in late capitalism than was the case in early capitalism. I really don't know. But I don't think it's controversial that capitalism has been on a socialist trajectory since its inception. You dont think its controversial because you have no idea what you are talking about. You ascribe every improvement in working conditions as a Socialist action, which is plainly bonkers. The easy example is Henry Ford's $5 a Day Wages - he didnt decide to pay that as part of some Socialist comradeship, he paid it because the capitalist in him saw that it would make him more money. And that explains things like the NHS, social housing, minimum wage, etc.? Marxism says there is a dialectic. A struggle between capitalism and socialism. In order for there to be a struggle between capitalism and communism, there has to be capitalism, right? Nobody's denying that capitalism exists and that some changes have occurred from capitalist motivations, Doc.
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on May 3, 2023 11:03:10 GMT
Gorillas are apes not monkeys. Gammons can be any race. Both gorrilla and gammon are racial slurs when used as an insult. Both are unacceptable terms, but casual racism is ok in the minds of cultist remoaners. Attack arguments and views, not people's racial characteristics. The term gammon refers to outrage not race. Going red in the face because trannies use the ladies toilet etc.
|
|