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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 18, 2023 13:04:06 GMT
I wonder if someone one day on this forum will contribute to a solution to the engineering problem posed in the OP. We spend our time talking about anything but the solution. Indeed I think this is why corporate Britain never gets anything done on time. I have already commented on it several times. Electricity is not storage - it is instantaneous. Somehow you just don't seem to grasp that. Try putting a solution to one of the many problems this scheme faces in your next comment and I'll see that as constructive. If you can't then you are as good as unemployable. Some solutions need to be created in order to fund your existence. What ya gonna dooooo? |
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 18, 2023 13:33:26 GMT
I have already commented on it several times. Electricity is not storage - it is instantaneous. Somehow you just don't seem to grasp that. Try putting a solution to one of the many problems this scheme faces in your next comment and I'll see that as constructive. If you can't then you are as good as unemployable. Some solutions need to be created in order to fund your existence. What ya gonna dooooo? Bloody hell !!! Yet again, I have already provided some answers. Don't you recall the Dinorweg Pumping station?? How about the paper mill in Scotland where I did a new scheme for the original dam. How about the Pitlochry Dam and the Salmon Ladder. And I'll remind you again that electricity us not storage - it is a rate. Are you sure about that physics degree you claim to have? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 18, 2023 14:12:01 GMT
Try putting a solution to one of the many problems this scheme faces in your next comment and I'll see that as constructive. If you can't then you are as good as unemployable. Some solutions need to be created in order to fund your existence. What ya gonna dooooo? Bloody hell !!! Yet again, I have already provided some answers. Don't you recall the Dinorweg Pumping station?? How about the paper mill in Scotland where I did a new scheme for the original dam. How about the Pitlochry Dam and the Salmon Ladder. And I'll remind you again that electricity us not storage - it is a rate. Are you sure about that physics degree you claim to have? How many GWhs can we store with available hydro schemes and what efficiency can we get for the round trip? Numbers are important. |
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 18, 2023 14:47:36 GMT
Bloody hell !!! Yet again, I have already provided some answers. Don't you recall the Dinorweg Pumping station?? How about the paper mill in Scotland where I did a new scheme for the original dam. How about the Pitlochry Dam and the Salmon Ladder. And I'll remind you again that electricity us not storage - it is a rate. Are you sure about that physics degree you claim to have? How many GWhs can we store with available hydro schemes and what efficiency can we get for the round trip? Numbers are important. For Dinorweg the energy storage capacity of the station is approximately 9.1 GWh. Pitlochery is rated at 75MW. Wind turbines in the North Sea range from around 1 MW to 5 MW but they quite variable. By comparison the Three Gorges Dam is 25,500 MW but I suppose you know that from your expertise of China. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Apr 18, 2023 22:40:11 GMT
I wonder if someone one day on this forum will contribute to a solution to the engineering problem posed in the OP. We spend our time talking about anything but the solution. Indeed I think this is why corporate Britain never gets anything done on time. I have already commented on it several times. Electricity is not storage - it is instantaneous. Somehow you just don't seem to grasp that. But surely the problem is, it’s going to have to NOT be. And you can blame thatcher for that. Her New Electricity Trading Arrangements changed it from a utility to a commodity worth speculating on for the purpose of profiteering. FFS i was paid to implement a trading floor system for Yorkshire Electricity using a took straight off the fucking stock exchange to allow them to gamble and profit on the predicted price of a unit and its demand and supply for every half hour of every day a year ahead. Do you have the faintest idea how much money i could make if i had one of those sand battery systems in this country connected to our national grid. Thatcher make the supply of electricity a speculators paradise, by imposing punitive financial penalties on any company who got their prediction of consumption wrong by a single kilowatt hour in each of those half hour periods. Before she fucked us over, a truly national central electricity generating board created, for the benefit of the nation, systems like Dinorwig. A reservoir on a hilltop in the wettest shittiest part of wales would fill with water and be kept at the point of overflowing so that when the wimbledon final, the world cup or ITV’s broadcast of the latest bond film six months after the cinema release ended and the whole of britain went to take a piss and put the kettle on, millions of gallons of water raced through the just opened turbine valves to hydroelectrically create the power to run the shithouse pumps that stopped the sewers flooding and boil those kettles I think i’m preaching to the choir here. Sorry if this sounds like a rant. It’s not aimed at you but it needs to be said. We HAD great minds thinking up shit like Dinorwig not to line the bank account of some CEO but for the benefit of people like you and me. Thatcher set the suppliers and generators apart and put a middleman between them to collect a wad in fines every time they fucked up, to benefit tbe treasury at the expense of the consumer. Yorkshire Electric realised that by giving Blue Circle Cement FREE electricity (ok, NEARLY free electricity) to run stone crushing plant but taking control of when it ran, they could protect themselves against these network fines for mis reading the market. If their customers wanted more juice than they forecast, they could avoid having to buy extra from the black marketeer network spiv by nit crushing stone, and if their customers chose to go to bed rather than stay up late, a stone crushing plant miles away would use the kilowatt hours the sleeping residents didnt, so avoiding the ounitive fines for over production After a while they realised something else. By planning to run their stone crusher and create a stone dust mountain they could have a ready supply of available electricity to sell at an outrageous fee to the foolhardy company who underestimated their need when they sent in their budget speculation twelve months earlier, and they could take the excess from overoptimistic speculators snd use it to crush more stone dirt cheap. Thatcher turned an electricity company into a cement making company and made schmucks of all of us in the meanwhile. There are no storage systems like this sand battery because the narket has been mesmerised into the business of instant profit If only we could reverse this madness You are right in your assertion that an electricity need is instantaneous. Others in this thread have also brought up the efficiency or lack of it of converting one form of energy to another and the outrageous cost of battery storage. We need to find a way to have power stations on standby ready to create megawatts in less than a minute. The idea if that sand battery was a way to store a shitload of heat that might be made available to directly heat spaces and drive turbines to create power We need something that can deliver megawatts in a microsecond to stop a brownout but that need run only for the time it takes to get something else up to speed. Maybe what we need most of all is a good old fashioned furnace type power station with steam turbines. We should build about a thousand such places across the country with old fashioned lead acid batteries and invertors. Each need only serve the need of the duration of the demand spike and slowly recharge the accumulators once the spike passes We could fuel the furnaces with the corpses of just stop oil activists |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 0:30:20 GMT
How many GWhs can we store with available hydro schemes and what efficiency can we get for the round trip? Numbers are important. For Dinorweg the energy storage capacity of the station is approximately 9.1 GWh. Pitlochery is rated at 75MW. Wind turbines in the North Sea range from around 1 MW to 5 MW but they quite variable. By comparison the Three Gorges Dam is 25,500 MW but I suppose you know that from your expertise of China. I knew it was the biggest in the world. Yes that dam is incredible.
How many more suitable site do you suppose we have for storage in the UK? 9 GWh is a good amount, but it won't do for long-term energy storage for the entire country. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 1:03:08 GMT
I think you need a chain of different solutions. For a surge that might last a few seconds we could use super capacitors. They can deliver almost unlimited amounts of current instantly, but don't hold that much energy. The new ones use nanotechnology to increase the storage so they are about as energy dense as normal rechargeable. That's a Jap invention by the way. They plan on using them for charging stations so you can fast-charge a car without needing heavy duty cables from the grid.
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 19, 2023 10:58:58 GMT
For Dinorweg the energy storage capacity of the station is approximately 9.1 GWh. Pitlochery is rated at 75MW. Wind turbines in the North Sea range from around 1 MW to 5 MW but they quite variable. By comparison the Three Gorges Dam is 25,500 MW but I suppose you know that from your expertise of China. I knew it was the biggest in the world. Yes that dam is incredible.
How many more suitable site do you suppose we have for storage in the UK? 9 GWh is a good amount, but it won't do for long-term energy storage for the entire country. We have little energy storage solutions in UK. Most of it is instantaneous with the exception of nuclear but that's a limited amount. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 12:04:33 GMT
I knew it was the biggest in the world. Yes that dam is incredible.
How many more suitable site do you suppose we have for storage in the UK? 9 GWh is a good amount, but it won't do for long-term energy storage for the entire country. We have little energy storage solutions in UK. Most of it is instantaneous with the exception of nuclear but that's a limited amount. I've never heard a government minister in the UK say we need energy storage. I think it is too technical for the buffoons. |
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 19, 2023 12:14:43 GMT
We have little energy storage solutions in UK. Most of it is instantaneous with the exception of nuclear but that's a limited amount. I've never heard a government minister in the UK say we need energy storage. I think it is too technical for the buffoons. How much energy storage do you think you would need? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 12:32:34 GMT
I've never heard a government minister in the UK say we need energy storage. I think it is too technical for the buffoons. How much energy storage do you think you would need? A lot.
Off the top of my head, we have about 30 million houses and each one consumes several MWhs of electricity per year. The good news is we can generate that amount with just solar panels. They don't take an unreasonable amount of land up. I estimated about 0.5% (think if your garden was 0.5% smaller - you would not notice. )
But the real game is economics. If it is cheaper to generate and store than to generate via 24/7 means then it will become the defacto solution in a rational society. It would be the case of the more to store the cheaper your bills are.
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 19, 2023 12:54:36 GMT
How much energy storage do you think you would need? A lot.
Off the top of my head, we have about 30 million houses and each one consumes several MWhs of electricity per year. The good news is we can generate that amount with just solar panels. They don't take an unreasonable amount of land up. I estimated about 0.5% (think if your garden was 0.5% smaller - you would not notice. )
But the real game is economics. If it is cheaper to generate and store than to generate via 24/7 means then it will become the defacto solution in a rational society. It would be the case of the more to store the cheaper your bills are.
But we don't have the means to store it. That's the point you are missing. The average domestic residence is about 10 kWh per day but the rate is quite variable depending on the time of day. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 13:21:20 GMT
A lot.
Off the top of my head, we have about 30 million houses and each one consumes several MWhs of electricity per year. The good news is we can generate that amount with just solar panels. They don't take an unreasonable amount of land up. I estimated about 0.5% (think if your garden was 0.5% smaller - you would not notice. )
But the real game is economics. If it is cheaper to generate and store than to generate via 24/7 means then it will become the defacto solution in a rational society. It would be the case of the more to store the cheaper your bills are.
But we don't have the means to store it. That's the point you are missing. The average domestic residence is about 10 kWh per day but the rate is quite variable depending on the time of day. Thanks, that was the figure I was looking for. OK so lets look at the calculation on a per residence basis. 10KWh for one day means a cubic meter of sand gives you 2 months electricity storage. To be clear, I'm just calculating it this way, but in reality it would be on an industrial scale, however it is good to scale the economics down to per household because it is the household who gets the bill.
Now lets say the household holds shares in the firm. It would need to invest in about 3-4 cubic meters of sand. Imagine paying for that quantity over 20 years - it would be peanuts. The problem with a lot of other schemes is they may need so much of a rare resource that we simply could not build to this scale, but with this the raw ingredients are limitless. There are huge deserts full of the stuff. The actual storage is cheap, but what I think would be the costly thing is the heat engine to convert back to mechanical and then a generator to go to electricity.
These parts do not need to be any greater scale than what we have been doing all along by burning gas. We are essentially switching the gas burners for heat provided by some heat exchanger and liquid. Molten salt is used for your 500c temperatures, but we will have to uprate this gear to work efficiently at 1700C. Actually there is a bonus in all of this I have not mentioned yet, and that is that if you heat the sand until it melts you also get additional heat storage from the latent heat. (Like s true salesman I mention that at the end of the pitch!) You might even be able to have a dual use power station, as per powered by gas or stored heat.
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Post by besoeker3 on Apr 19, 2023 13:57:29 GMT
But we don't have the means to store it. That's the point you are missing. The average domestic residence is about 10 kWh per day but the rate is quite variable depending on the time of day. Thanks, that was the figure I was looking for. OK so lets look at the calculation on a per residence basis. 10KWh for one day means a cubic meter of sand gives you 2 months electricity storage. To be clear, I'm just calculating it this way, but in reality it would be on an industrial scale, however it is good to scale the economics down to per household because it is the household who gets the bill.
Now lets say the household holds shares in the firm. It would need to invest in about 3-4 cubic meters of sand. Imagine paying for that quantity over 20 years - it would be peanuts. The problem with a lot of other schemes is they may need so much of a rare resource that we simply could not build to this scale, but with this the raw ingredients are limitless. There are huge deserts full of the stuff. The actual storage is cheap, but what I think would be the costly thing is the heat engine to convert back to mechanical and then a generator to go to electricity.
These parts do not need to be any greater scale than what we have been doing all along by burning gas. We are essentially switching the gas burners for heat provided by some heat exchanger and liquid. Molten salt is used for your 500c temperatures, but we will have to uprate this gear to work efficiently at 1700C. Actually there is a bonus in all of this I have not mentioned yet, and that is that if you heat the sand until it melts you also get additional heat storage from the latent heat. (Like s true salesman I mention that at the end of the pitch!) You might even be able to have a dual use power station, as per powered by gas or stored heat.
Who heats the sand to 1700C in your house? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 19, 2023 22:53:55 GMT
Thanks, that was the figure I was looking for. OK so lets look at the calculation on a per residence basis. 10KWh for one day means a cubic meter of sand gives you 2 months electricity storage. To be clear, I'm just calculating it this way, but in reality it would be on an industrial scale, however it is good to scale the economics down to per household because it is the household who gets the bill.
Now lets say the household holds shares in the firm. It would need to invest in about 3-4 cubic meters of sand. Imagine paying for that quantity over 20 years - it would be peanuts. The problem with a lot of other schemes is they may need so much of a rare resource that we simply could not build to this scale, but with this the raw ingredients are limitless. There are huge deserts full of the stuff. The actual storage is cheap, but what I think would be the costly thing is the heat engine to convert back to mechanical and then a generator to go to electricity.
These parts do not need to be any greater scale than what we have been doing all along by burning gas. We are essentially switching the gas burners for heat provided by some heat exchanger and liquid. Molten salt is used for your 500c temperatures, but we will have to uprate this gear to work efficiently at 1700C. Actually there is a bonus in all of this I have not mentioned yet, and that is that if you heat the sand until it melts you also get additional heat storage from the latent heat. (Like s true salesman I mention that at the end of the pitch!) You might even be able to have a dual use power station, as per powered by gas or stored heat.
Who heats the sand to 1700C in your house? -Read the bloody post. I specially put a bit in it to make sure you would not get confused and you still did. |
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