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Post by happyjack on Mar 14, 2023 19:48:36 GMT
There is sanity and decency all around. I see it all of the time. Despite the impression we might get from our Ukip-lite Government and its backers, it certainly in greater supply than the opposite which is why I am confident that it will prevail.
I don’t know what will have to happen to make me walk away but I will know it when we get to that point. Of course, I am only talking about negative reasons for walking away here. My positive reasons for being prepared to walk away remain as I have always stated them to be ie. clear financial/ economic benefit rather than the self-imposed financial / economic misery that I believe independence will bring and which nobody has remotely been able to demonstrate would not be the case.
I don’t know what the negative dealbreaker would be for me to walk away but the positive dealbreaker would be if someone could put forward a credible and convincing case that stood up to scrutiny that an independent Scotland would be financially/ economically better off than a Scotland in the UK would be. On that point, I would be prepared to accept a modest short-lived downturn in the initial period whilst we established ourselves if I could be convinced that that would be all we would suffer for the financial /economic bounty that we would all enjoy thereafter.
I am increasingly convinced, however, that there is no credible and convincing financial/ economic case for independence. If there were we would surely have heard it by now.
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Post by bancroft on Mar 14, 2023 19:54:45 GMT
I am supportive of what Gary Lineker said (although not sure that it was helpful to reference pre-war Germany) and I admire the stance that he, and his colleagues at the BBC, have taken. The current Tory government and far too many of the current crop of Tory MPs shame us all - and the deplorables amongst us, who used to hide in the shadows, seem to be growing in number and becoming increasingly visible and vocal. We can’t all just sit on our hands and let them run amok. Frankly, if the UK continues to go down this road and things continue to snowball then there will be a point where I will have to accept, economic hardship or not, that the only thing to do is to walk away. For me, though, that breaking point is still someway off and I still expect sanity and decency to prevail well before we reach that point..Three questions... What 'sanity and decency' have you seen so far? What will have to happen for you to think that it's time to walk away? What is the deal breaker for you? I would like someone to ask Lineker how many Albanian asylum seekers can he support as the British tax payer is just fed up with it. At the same time ask Wright, Shearer and Alex Scott too. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 15, 2023 8:47:56 GMT
No, that’s the problem with the First Past the Post argument. Labour’s membership is now strongly in favour of PR rather than FPTP. Starmer is resisting the membership at the moment, but if Labour ever find themselves forming a 2nd term government again, there will be real pressure from within to introduce PR. In my view, and assuming SNP don’t self-harm most of their Westminster seats away before then, that is the best prospect for them securing another indyref, in exchange for supporting the introduction of PR for Westminster elections. Eh?
What party that could possibly form government in england looks like ending fptp? Labours membership have always been strongly in favour of ending fptp , and introducing pr. I was once a labour member in paisley , and i remember the conversations back in the early nineties never mind the fact starmer once again dangled the carrot of pr to get elected , then reneged on it once more as all labour leaders do.
Is that your latest puerile argument for the union  jam tomorrow delivered by some unknown source will hopefully keep the tories out? 
Somehow i dont think the english really care about changing voting systems to enable hardcore scottish unionists like you to keep the union. You arent that important to them in the grand scheme of things as we saw with brexit.
We have already seen the english voters would happily cut scotland and northern ireland loose to secure brexit. The english vote tory two thirds of the time , and why shouldnt they? They arent going to stop doing that , or change their voting system to stack the odds in favour of the union for yoons like you happy.
Because overall, the voters of England – that’s Remainers and Leavers combined – would drop Scotland like a hot potato if it were somehow to be necessary in order to secure Brexit. (And remember, very nearly half of them don’t even WANT Brexit. How much must those guys hate us?) Just a third of English voters don’t think it’d be worth ditching Scotland to get out of the EU.
If you exclude don’t-know responses, those numbers come out, ironically, to 55-45.
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Post by thomas on Mar 15, 2023 9:04:29 GMT
I would like someone to ask Lineker how many Albanian asylum seekers can he support as the British tax payer is just fed up with it. At the same time ask Wright, Shearer and Alex Scott too. surely that question is better asked to the uk conservative governemnt who over the last thirteen years in power have broken all sorts of records for mass uncontrolled immigration while blaming everyone and everything for thier own ineptitude? |
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Post by bancroft on Mar 15, 2023 11:52:27 GMT
I would like someone to ask Lineker how many Albanian asylum seekers can he support as the British tax payer is just fed up with it. At the same time ask Wright, Shearer and Alex Scott too. surely that question is better asked to the uk conservative governemnt who over the last thirteen years in power have broken all sorts of records for mass uncontrolled immigration while blaming everyone and everything for thier own ineptitude? Personally think my area is much better since Brexit yet certainly don't want loads of Albanians congregating around the streets. |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 15, 2023 11:59:45 GMT
No, that’s the problem with the First Past the Post argument. Labour’s membership is now strongly in favour of PR rather than FPTP. Starmer is resisting the membership at the moment, but if Labour ever find themselves forming a 2nd term government again, there will be real pressure from within to introduce PR. In my view, and assuming SNP don’t self-harm most of their Westminster seats away before then, that is the best prospect for them securing another indyref, in exchange for supporting the introduction of PR for Westminster elections. Eh?
What party that could possibly form government in england looks like ending fptp? Labours membership have always been strongly in favour of ending fptp , and introducing pr. I was once a labour member in paisley , and i remember the conversations back in the early nineties never mind the fact starmer once again dangled the carrot of pr to get elected , then reneged on it once more as all labour leaders do.
Is that your latest puerile argument for the union jam tomorrow delivered by some unknown source will hopefully keep the tories out?
Somehow i dont think the english really care about changing voting systems to enable hardcore scottish unionists like you to keep the union. You arent that important to them in the grand scheme of things as we saw with brexit.
We have already seen the english voters would happily cut scotland and northern ireland loose to secure brexit. The english vote tory two thirds of the time , and why shouldnt they? They arent going to stop doing that , or change their voting system to stack the odds in favour of the union for yoons like you happy.
Because overall, the voters of England – that’s Remainers and Leavers combined – would drop Scotland like a hot potato if it were somehow to be necessary in order to secure Brexit. (And remember, very nearly half of them don’t even WANT Brexit. How much must those guys hate us?) Just a third of English voters don’t think it’d be worth ditching Scotland to get out of the EU.
If you exclude don’t-know responses, those numbers come out, ironically, to 55-45.
Your failure to acknowledge that a general election is held across the whole country (not just England), that the votes of the whole country are counted (and not just those in England), that the governments that are formed are for government in the whole country (and not just in England), and much of the rest that you say above brought to mind the English football fans from yesteryear who would not acknowledge the contribution of black players in the England team and who refused to include goals scored by black players in their version of match results. Those people were rightly condemned as racists. The only real difference between you and them is situational, as far as I can see - not attitudinal or behavioural. Racism is racism no matter the situation and needs to be called out - so I am calling you out for your racist behaviour. Labour membership has not always been strongly in favour of PR, certainly not in the ‘60s, ‘70s and early ‘80s, for example, when Labour and Conservative seemed to take it in turn to form a government. However, I accept that attitudes started to change during the Thatcher years and that support for PR amongst Labour membership started rising then. The difference now is that the Labour movement is now strongly behind PR, not just individual members, resulting in, for the first time, an overwhelming vote at last year’s party conference for PR. So, in answer to your question (which I have sanitised to exclude your anti-English racist slant) the Labour Party is a party that could possibly form a government in the UK that looks likely to introduce PR. You are wrong to talk about “ the English” as if they are a monolithic entity who all share the same opinion and attitudes. Instead, just like people across the whole country, the English are all individuals with their own personal opinions which vary from one another, in the same way as in every other part of our country. So some will and do want to retain FPTP and some will and do want PR. The English don’t vote Tory 2/3rds of the time , or anything like it. In fact, just as is the case with every other part of the country, there is seldom (if ever) a majority Tory vote in England. We don’t get Tory governments 2/3rds of the time because of the English vote but because of the democracy corrupting FPTP system. And never mind cutting Scotland and NI loose because of Brexit. Both Scotland and NI cost the English people a fortune (as GERS demonstrate in Scotland’s case). I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to cut us and NI loose full stop. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 16, 2023 8:05:54 GMT
Eh?
What party that could possibly form government in england looks like ending fptp? Labours membership have always been strongly in favour of ending fptp , and introducing pr. I was once a labour member in paisley , and i remember the conversations back in the early nineties never mind the fact starmer once again dangled the carrot of pr to get elected , then reneged on it once more as all labour leaders do.
Is that your latest puerile argument for the union jam tomorrow delivered by some unknown source will hopefully keep the tories out?
Somehow i dont think the english really care about changing voting systems to enable hardcore scottish unionists like you to keep the union. You arent that important to them in the grand scheme of things as we saw with brexit.
We have already seen the english voters would happily cut scotland and northern ireland loose to secure brexit. The english vote tory two thirds of the time , and why shouldnt they? They arent going to stop doing that , or change their voting system to stack the odds in favour of the union for yoons like you happy.
Because overall, the voters of England – that’s Remainers and Leavers combined – would drop Scotland like a hot potato if it were somehow to be necessary in order to secure Brexit. (And remember, very nearly half of them don’t even WANT Brexit. How much must those guys hate us?) Just a third of English voters don’t think it’d be worth ditching Scotland to get out of the EU.
If you exclude don’t-know responses, those numbers come out, ironically, to 55-45.
Your failure to acknowledge that a general election is held across the whole country (not just England), that the votes of the whole country are counted (and not just those in England), that the governments that are formed are for government in the whole country (and not just in England), and much of the rest that you say above brought to mind the English football fans from yesteryear who would not acknowledge the contribution of black players in the England team and who refused to include goals scored by black players in their version of match results. Those people were rightly condemned as racists. The only real difference between you and them is situational, as far as I can see - not attitudinal or behavioural. Racism is racism no matter the situation and needs to be called out - so I am calling you out for your racist behaviour. Labour membership has not always been strongly in favour of PR, certainly not in the ‘60s, ‘70s and early ‘80s, for example, when Labour and Conservative seemed to take it in turn to form a government. However, I accept that attitudes started to change during the Thatcher years and that support for PR amongst Labour membership started rising then. The difference now is that the Labour movement is now strongly behind PR, not just individual members, resulting in, for the first time, an overwhelming vote at last year’s party conference for PR. So, in answer to your question (which I have sanitised to exclude your anti-English racist slant) the Labour Party is a party that could possibly form a government in the UK that looks likely to introduce PR. You are wrong to talk about “ the English” as if they are a monolithic entity who all share the same opinion and attitudes. Instead, just like people across the whole country, the English are all individuals with their own personal opinions which vary from one another, in the same way as in every other part of our country. So some will and do want to retain FPTP and some will and do want PR. The English don’t vote Tory 2/3rds of the time , or anything like it. In fact, just as is the case with every other part of the country, there is seldom (if ever) a majority Tory vote in England. We don’t get Tory governments 2/3rds of the time because of the English vote but because of the democracy corrupting FPTP system. And never mind cutting Scotland and NI loose because of Brexit. Both Scotland and NI cost the English people a fortune (as GERS demonstrate in Scotland’s case). I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to cut us and NI loose full stop. I havent laughed so hard since you inferred you were somehow "impartial " happy. Racism , english fitba fans ,denial of reality and so on. What a steaming pile of horse manure.
I simply pointed out the reality that the english , who of course make up over 80 % of the popualtion of this disunited kingdom , vote tory two thirds of the time.
You accepted that earlier , with the caveat that somehow , you were going to stitch up the english parliament by bringing in PR to stop them. Where have we heard this before from scottish unionists?
In 1999 , scottish unionists told us they had stitched up the scottish parliament under pr to stop the snp and preserve the union.
2007......Alec salmond and the snp said to happyjack and co..."hold my beer !"
2023 , happy jack ...."we are going to stich up the english parliament under pr to stop the tories getting in and preserve the union "
English tories......
If you havent worked out by now after the experience in our own country that there is no democratic political voting system that will stop any party if the public choose them for government , then its pointless engaging with you further.
However disgusting and contemptuous the tories are , at least they generally win elections , and conjure up winning political strategies now and again unlike the dimwits of scottish unionism .
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Post by thomas on Mar 16, 2023 8:09:22 GMT
surely that question is better asked to the uk conservative governemnt who over the last thirteen years in power have broken all sorts of records for mass uncontrolled immigration while blaming everyone and everything for thier own ineptitude? Personally think my area is much better since Brexit yet certainly don't want loads of Albanians congregating around the streets. Fair enough , but my point still stands , in that the tories , no one else , are responsible for mass immigration and of course the albanians you mention. David davis made that point only last week from memory when being interviewed about his parties failure to deal with immigration , and how the home office wasnt fit for purpose. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 16, 2023 8:44:54 GMT
Labour has rigged the election system to its planned Scottish Parliament so the SNP can’t take control of it, a party chief admitted yesterday.
And the assembly will never be allowed to organise its own referendum on independence.
The voting system – a mix of first-past-the-post and proportional representation – would mean that no one party is likely to have overall control.
When asked if that was to prevent the Nats taking power, Labour’s Scottish general secretary Jack McConnell said: ‘Correct’
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Post by happyjack on Mar 16, 2023 10:25:56 GMT
Your failure to acknowledge that a general election is held across the whole country (not just England), that the votes of the whole country are counted (and not just those in England), that the governments that are formed are for government in the whole country (and not just in England), and much of the rest that you say above brought to mind the English football fans from yesteryear who would not acknowledge the contribution of black players in the England team and who refused to include goals scored by black players in their version of match results. Those people were rightly condemned as racists. The only real difference between you and them is situational, as far as I can see - not attitudinal or behavioural. Racism is racism no matter the situation and needs to be called out - so I am calling you out for your racist behaviour. Labour membership has not always been strongly in favour of PR, certainly not in the ‘60s, ‘70s and early ‘80s, for example, when Labour and Conservative seemed to take it in turn to form a government. However, I accept that attitudes started to change during the Thatcher years and that support for PR amongst Labour membership started rising then. The difference now is that the Labour movement is now strongly behind PR, not just individual members, resulting in, for the first time, an overwhelming vote at last year’s party conference for PR. So, in answer to your question (which I have sanitised to exclude your anti-English racist slant) the Labour Party is a party that could possibly form a government in the UK that looks likely to introduce PR. You are wrong to talk about “ the English” as if they are a monolithic entity who all share the same opinion and attitudes. Instead, just like people across the whole country, the English are all individuals with their own personal opinions which vary from one another, in the same way as in every other part of our country. So some will and do want to retain FPTP and some will and do want PR. The English don’t vote Tory 2/3rds of the time , or anything like it. In fact, just as is the case with every other part of the country, there is seldom (if ever) a majority Tory vote in England. We don’t get Tory governments 2/3rds of the time because of the English vote but because of the democracy corrupting FPTP system. And never mind cutting Scotland and NI loose because of Brexit. Both Scotland and NI cost the English people a fortune (as GERS demonstrate in Scotland’s case). I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to cut us and NI loose full stop. I havent laughed so hard since you inferred you were somehow "impartial " happy. Racism , english fitba fans ,denial of reality and so on. What a steaming pile of horse manure.
As I said, the only difference between you and them is situational ie. English fitba’ v Scottish Independence. Attitudinally and behaviourally, you display the same racist characteristics as they did back in the day. As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what that was meant to be other than a desperate attempt to divert because you can’t credibly deny. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 17, 2023 9:19:58 GMT
I havent laughed so hard since you inferred you were somehow "impartial " happy. Racism , english fitba fans ,denial of reality and so on. What a steaming pile of horse manure.
As I said, the only difference between you and them is situational ie. English fitba’ v Scottish Independence. Attitudinally and behaviourally, you display the same racist characteristics as they did back in the day. As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what that was meant to be other than a desperate attempt to divert because you can’t credibly deny. im adressing your pitifull earlier attempt to "preserve the union " by telling me of the potential stitch up of englands westmisnter parliament under pr to keep the tories out.
Just reminding you of how your previous attempt in scotland went , not to mention how anti democratic you british unionists can be .
You puerilely attempt to cast me as racist and anti english , which is laughable coming from a guy who would go as far as to deny the english democracy over who they elect and wether or not they wish to remain members of a european union.
You are far more anti english than i could ever be. I on the other hand am one of the biggest supporters of england and its independence on this forum.
You would throw both scotland and england under a bus to maintain your union at any cost.
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Post by happyjack on Mar 17, 2023 9:51:59 GMT
As I said before, the only difference between you and the England supporting bigots of yesteryear is situational. Attitudinally and behaviourally there is little or no underlying difference between you.
They were rightly condemned by all decent people as being racist. If they were racist (which they undoubtedly were, and as older men, probably still are) then work it out for yourself what that makes you.
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Post by thomas on Mar 17, 2023 9:58:33 GMT
As I said before, the only difference between you and the England supporting bigots of yesteryear is situational. Attitudinally and behaviourally there is little or no underlying difference between you. They were rightly condemned by all decent people as being racist. If they were racist (which they undoubtedly were, and as older men, probably still are) then work it out for yourself what that makes you. i accept your latest surrender jack over ex pat voting rights and the stitch up of the english parliament to keep the tories out you old anti democrat you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2023 10:08:32 GMT
As I said before, the only difference between you and the England supporting bigots of yesteryear is situational. There's nothing wrong with supporting England. The difference down here is that it isn't done so out of malice and hate, which is why there's no English nationalist movement full of antis, at least not one of any major significance (EDP was the last I heard of). If anything, the English are too laid back and confident at times, but that's not to say it's entirely a bad thing. After all, the ScotNats have been poking England with hate for years, and all they've received in return is support and laughter. |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 17, 2023 10:18:24 GMT
As I said before, the only difference between you and the England supporting bigots of yesteryear is situational. Attitudinally and behaviourally there is little or no underlying difference between you. They were rightly condemned by all decent people as being racist. If they were racist (which they undoubtedly were, and as older men, probably still are) then work it out for yourself what that makes you. i accept your latest surrender jack over ex pat voting rights and the stitch up of the english parliament to keep the tories out you old anti democrat you.
Eh? Where have I done that? |
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jam tomorrow delivered by some unknown source will hopefully keep the tories out? 
