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Post by zanygame on Mar 19, 2023 10:12:48 GMT
Growth through immigration provides jobs by creating more people needing jobs. Net zero. Its a short term solution. You provide more workers and more production and it works for a while as tax receipts rise and GDP rises, but then those new workers start to require more government help (Education, Health, pensions etc) so you have to bring in more workers again and again. This has worked for decades but we are reaching a population that feels crowded. Question is: If you kerb this method of filling the gap between production and need, then what replaces it? Yes ofcourse I know that, but companies don't control immigration. Immigration creates more customers, businesses employ more people to supply that demand. Yes immigrants are no different to Brits, just as hard working and entrepreneurial. That's not what I said, please read it again. Yes again of course. As I said at first these mostly young immigrants contribute more than they take, but after a while they become just like every other British citizen and take the same as they put in, then after another while they retire and become net takers. So you need another round of new young workers (immigrants) That's just off topic as immigration has no effect on how this money is wasted. Freeports had never entered my mind in this conversation. ??
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 10:29:41 GMT
The relative amounts residents contribute and take out is a governmental issue. There are rumblings already about removing state pensions and making everyone take out a private pension. The faults of the government planning and spending is not the fault of the migrant. If the model of 20 years ago doesnt fit the future, change rhe model. Macron is trying to do just that. And he is right to do so.
The job of the government is to make it attractive for businesses etc to invest, employ and reward its citizens. The rest follows as night follows day if capitalism is allowed to operate honestly and freely. But this government has not made the right choices, squandered buge amounts of money and is now blaming those who might otherwise die or be tortured. If the government had the money to buy up billions of pounds of land, it had the money to entice private enterprise to move north. Improve roads and small airports. HS2 isnt just track. Trains have to be built and manned and THEN industry enticwd to invest.
It is just the biggest carbuncle in a series of ridicilous decisions made for the glory of the Tory and has NOTHING to do with dealing seriously with the migration issue. If industry had been allowed to grow in the north, the UK would be delighted to welcome those who could turn it into productive development.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 19, 2023 11:39:08 GMT
The relative amounts residents contribute and take out is a governmental issue. There are rumblings already about removing state pensions and making everyone take out a private pension. The faults of the government planning and spending is not the fault of the migrant. If the model of 20 years ago doesnt fit the future, change rhe model. Macron is trying to do just that. And he is right to do so. The job of the government is to make it attractive for businesses etc to invest, employ and reward its citizens. The rest follows as night follows day if capitalism is allowed to operate honestly and freely. But this government has not made the right choices, squandered buge amounts of money and is now blaming those who might otherwise die or be tortured. If the government had the money to buy up billions of pounds of land, it had the money to entice private enterprise to move north. Improve roads and small airports. HS2 isnt just track. Trains have to be built and manned and THEN industry enticwd to invest. It is just the biggest carbuncle in a series of ridicilous decisions made for the glory of the Tory and has NOTHING to do with dealing seriously with the migration issue. If industry had been allowed to grow in the north, the UK would be delighted to welcome those who could turn it into productive development. I have no idea who you are talking to here. At no point have I even hinted its the fault of the migrant, so I'll butt out of your conversation with whoever is making the claims you refute.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 11:39:29 GMT
Apart from lower wages, higher housing costs, increased competition for schools, doctors and welfare services and increased congestion on the roads. No effect alt all... I just showed you that the wages od the average brit were NOT affected by migration!! LOL - simply repeating yourself does not make it true..
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 11:40:28 GMT
oh we are not going through all this nonsense again are we? We have had mass immigration to fill these jobs for over 2 decades and it has not made a dent in the UK's poor productivity problem. Perhaps it's time to consider that it is the cause not the solution. Then what is the cause? Poor investment? Lazy Brits? An aging population? Hmm. An aging population raises an interesting question. If our own birth rate had remained stable but we hadn't had immigration, then what would our population be. A good question - what we do know for sure is that it was not solved by mass immigration.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 11:43:46 GMT
Housing prices are about the lack and cost of building land. Immigration is part of that issue. Either kerb immigration or surrender agricultural land to building. Housing prices are all about politicians restraining building to support the value of current housing. No politician will win anything on a platform of " we are going to build new houses next to that strip of land you use for a park, and move in a thousand homeowners. That of course will make your 1970's pile worth far less." Immigrants tend massively to live in communal homes. They often club together to buy a single home instead of one for each family member. What really inflated homeownership was the splintering of families for various reasons. And of course, countless NIMBY court cases. The fact is that we are for various reasons not building enough housing - so the logic of importing a million extra souls every 4 years and thus increasing competition for what existing housing there is certainly does not benefit the average working man in the UK.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 19, 2023 11:47:09 GMT
Then what is the cause? Poor investment? Lazy Brits? An aging population? Hmm. An aging population raises an interesting question. If our own birth rate had remained stable but we hadn't had immigration, then what would our population be. A good question - what we do know for sure is that it was not solved by mass immigration. Agreed, but a "not this" answer is not an answer. We also know for sure its not solved by gravity or Sunshine.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 12:55:41 GMT
I just showed you that the wages od the average brit were NOT affected by migration!! LOL - simply repeating yourself does not make it true.. Then post the contrary. Look up wages par capita Uk. And stop repeating governmental lies because you like to hear them. It was you who casually throws in terms like "the average Brit" Who is that??
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 12:59:59 GMT
Housing prices are all about politicians restraining building to support the value of current housing. No politician will win anything on a platform of " we are going to build new houses next to that strip of land you use for a park, and move in a thousand homeowners. That of course will make your 1970's pile worth far less." Immigrants tend massively to live in communal homes. They often club together to buy a single home instead of one for each family member. What really inflated homeownership was the splintering of families for various reasons. And of course, countless NIMBY court cases. The fact is that we are for various reasons not building enough housing - so the logic of importing a million extra souls every 4 years and thus increasing competition for what existing housing there is certainly does not benefit the average working man in the UK. Of course it does!. The value of their home goes up because of increased demand!!
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 13:08:11 GMT
A good question - what we do know for sure is that it was not solved by mass immigration. Agreed, but a "not this" answer is not an answer. We also know for sure its not solved by gravity or Sunshine. The pattern of who is a homeowner has changed, not l3ast becausre old people are living in their homes for years longer than 20 years ago. They are the post war generation which bought their homes at affordable prices and moved up the ladder, buying and selling until they stay for a lot longer because they live longer. And lets not forget the boom in people buying up portfolios of properties to rent out so they are not available to buy and enjoy the growing asset. It removes the availability of home ownership and the possibility of buying one because the rents are so high.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 13:12:45 GMT
The relative amounts residents contribute and take out is a governmental issue. There are rumblings already about removing state pensions and making everyone take out a private pension. The faults of the government planning and spending is not the fault of the migrant. If the model of 20 years ago doesnt fit the future, change rhe model. Macron is trying to do just that. And he is right to do so. The job of the government is to make it attractive for businesses etc to invest, employ and reward its citizens. The rest follows as night follows day if capitalism is allowed to operate honestly and freely. But this government has not made the right choices, squandered buge amounts of money and is now blaming those who might otherwise die or be tortured. If the government had the money to buy up billions of pounds of land, it had the money to entice private enterprise to move north. Improve roads and small airports. HS2 isnt just track. Trains have to be built and manned and THEN industry enticwd to invest. It is just the biggest carbuncle in a series of ridicilous decisions made for the glory of the Tory and has NOTHING to do with dealing seriously with the migration issue. If industry had been allowed to grow in the north, the UK would be delighted to welcome those who could turn it into productive development. I have no idea who you are talking to here. At no point have I even hinted its the fault of the migrant, so I'll butt out of your conversation with whoever is making the claims you refute. I am pointing out that the migrant problem and lack of housing is due to a ling series of poor decision making by the govt. Unstead of spending 100's of billions of pounds on thr impossible HS2 in the name of levelling up, it could invest directly in industries which would demand housing for employees. And let private industry "level up".
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Post by Toreador on Mar 19, 2023 15:48:24 GMT
Growth through immigration provides jobs by creating more people needing jobs. Net zero. Its a short term solution. You provide more workers and more production and it works for a while as tax receipts rise and GDP rises, but then those new workers start to require more government help (Education, Health, pensions etc) so you have to bring in more workers again and again. This has worked for decades but we are reaching a population that feels crowded. Question is: If you kerb this method of filling the gap between production and need, then what replaces it? You know quite well that companies dont take on more employees than are necessary to maintain and improve productivity and profits. They arent charities. A very notable number of migrants start their own companies. We saw that during the last migration of Indian and Pakistani migrants who actually changed the national dish from fish and chips to curries.
The help the migrants say they need is provided in part by the taxes they themselves have paid. But instead of building schools and (40?) hospitals, the government launches with great fanfare some impossibly longterm, hugely expensive levelling up election fraud. HS2 will never be built. But the money put into it would have been better spent buying up that land and offering it at good rates to industries suited to the workforce. Like it did in Derby in a deal with Toyota that used the engineering tradition of Rolls Royce. How better to encourage private investment and level up via private money than to modernise shipbuilding or development of industries that use vehicle and construction skills? And please dont mention freeports. They are a government joke. If the industries that did try to invest in the north are in trouble, why didnt the government support them via loans or grants at favourable terms? Instead it just lets someone abroad buy them and shrugs its shoulders, and rattles on about levelling up. It is just simple intelligence that is so badly lacking and too much political misleading sloganising that happens. Just to make sure you don't continue to live your life in ignorance, Indian restaurants in the 60s were started by people from Bangladesh who arrived here under a scheme that effectively gave them Britsh citizenship. In the very early seventies a Labour charlatan, schemer and criminal MP set up the Bangladesh Trust Bank that funded Bangladeshi migrants to come to Britain to set up businesses. To do this he had to recruit people who gave references that would allow Britain to accept them under the scheme, notably a police chief who became friends with the MP, a certain John Stonehouse. Once the police chief had installed enough Indian restauranteurs he move to England and set up a company that provided seafood to just about every Indian restaurant in mainland UK. When Stonehouse was under investigation, the now ex-police chief vanished abroad until it was safe to return. The early Chinese restaurants were not owned and run by Chinese people, they were people from Hong Kong who sold Americanised versions and very little genuine Chinese food. Even modern day Chinese run restaurants still offer Americaised dishes whilst many Indian restaurants serve Anglicised food.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 19, 2023 16:02:32 GMT
The fact is that we are for various reasons not building enough housing - so the logic of importing a million extra souls every 4 years and thus increasing competition for what existing housing there is certainly does not benefit the average working man in the UK. Of course it does!. The value of their home goes up because of increased demand!! And that's so helpful for those trying to get on the ladder or paying a mortgage. Seriously, you can do better than that
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 18:43:43 GMT
A good question - what we do know for sure is that it was not solved by mass immigration. Agreed, but a "not this" answer is not an answer. We also know for sure its not solved by gravity or Sunshine. I was simply replying to the (mistaken) assertion that immigration improved productivity. Productivity could be improved by restricting immigration - perhaps we should give that a go?
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 18:53:02 GMT
LOL - simply repeating yourself does not make it true.. Then post the contrary. Look up wages par capita Uk. Here you go - real average wages have been falling for the past 3 decades while we have had mass immigration.
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