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Post by zanygame on Mar 18, 2023 8:30:50 GMT
True but so what. Workers don't dictate their wages customers do. Pay £25 an hour to your dishwasher builders and see how many you sell compared to the Chinese made ones. Pay your barista's £16 an hour and go out of business.
Pay for Baristas is set by the market. And as our small high street can support 7 coffee shops and 6 pubs flogging coffee I'd suggest the demand is there. You seem to want pay set by Government diktat - but we see where that has ended up with the state of the NHS. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures and wage rates will rise or fall to the correct levels. Because they don't pay their staff £16 an hour. At the moment they are struggling to get staff and make ends meet, so reducing labour will not mean pay rises but lost jobs. As for government diktat, most of it already is. Its government that's stopping labour coming into the country, its government supporting Ukraine that's driving fuel prices and inflation. Are you suggesting they shouldn't interfere. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures, you having a laugh. Regulation, business taxes, workers rights and a thousand other measures stop business exploiting workers. If you just leave it to normal competitive pressures, we would get pay at correct levels African ones.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 18, 2023 8:55:30 GMT
By swapping to other countries for its immigrants. Of course they could have stopped FoM without leaving their biggest customer and crippling the country, but hey ho. That's a new one! You only claimed recently the UK would have had four years to trim round the edges of FoM. But ultimately, it would have had to maintain FoM. Now you claim the UK could have stopped it. Well, the UK has stopped it and the country isn't crippled unfortunately for those who believed in project fear. If the UK isn't crippled, why are the Tories constantly banging on about the need to return to growth? Although looking at it, Brexit is only part of the problem, the main issue seems to be the Tory government. Though much of the missing investment can be traced to our leaving that giant EU market. Under investment resulting in more labour needed and lower productivity.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 18, 2023 17:50:34 GMT
Pay for Baristas is set by the market. And as our small high street can support 7 coffee shops and 6 pubs flogging coffee I'd suggest the demand is there. You seem to want pay set by Government diktat - but we see where that has ended up with the state of the NHS. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures and wage rates will rise or fall to the correct levels. Because they don't pay their staff £16 an hour. At the moment they are struggling to get staff and make ends meet, so reducing labour will not mean pay rises but lost jobs. As for government diktat, most of it already is. Its government that's stopping labour coming into the country, its government supporting Ukraine that's driving fuel prices and inflation. Are you suggesting they shouldn't interfere. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures, you having a laugh. Regulation, business taxes, workers rights and a thousand other measures stop business exploiting workers. If you just leave it to normal competitive pressures, we would get pay at correct levels African ones. Some pay will rise and some jobs will be lost - which I would consider better than your alternative of importing thousands of people on minimum wage to make coffee. As the average person does not benefit from mass immigration and only sees the negatives then at some point you have to draw a line and say no more, if that means a couple of coffee shops have to close that is a price worth paying - increasing the population by 1 million every 4 years in unsustainable as we are full.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 18, 2023 18:31:30 GMT
Because they don't pay their staff £16 an hour. At the moment they are struggling to get staff and make ends meet, so reducing labour will not mean pay rises but lost jobs. As for government diktat, most of it already is. Its government that's stopping labour coming into the country, its government supporting Ukraine that's driving fuel prices and inflation. Are you suggesting they shouldn't interfere. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures, you having a laugh. Regulation, business taxes, workers rights and a thousand other measures stop business exploiting workers. If you just leave it to normal competitive pressures, we would get pay at correct levels African ones. Some pay will rise and some jobs will be lost - which I would consider better than your alternative of importing thousands of people on minimum wage to make coffee. As the average person does not benefit from mass immigration and only sees the negatives then at some point you have to draw a line and say no more, if that means a couple of coffee shops have to close that is a price worth paying - increasing the population by 1 million every 4 years in unsustainable as we are full. Make up your mind, do you want the government to control wages or not. First you say they should leave it to the market, then you say they should control them by stopping immigration, which is it? And to save time could you tell me if you would have government put tariffs on imports to keep wages high or let the markets decide that as well? BTW I am against further immigration, but we are talking about controlling wages or not.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 18, 2023 18:34:28 GMT
Some pay will rise and some jobs will be lost - which I would consider better than your alternative of importing thousands of people on minimum wage to make coffee. As the average person does not benefit from mass immigration and only sees the negatives then at some point you have to draw a line and say no more, if that means a couple of coffee shops have to close that is a price worth paying - increasing the population by 1 million every 4 years in unsustainable as we are full. Make up your mind, do you want the government to control wages or not. First you say they should leave it to the market, then you say they should control them by stopping immigration, which is it? And to save time could you tell me if you would have government put tariffs on imports to keep wages high or let the markets decide that as well? Mass immigration pushes down wages for British citizens - so your damn right I dont support that. It is Government policy (since the Blair administration) to have mass immigration - it is that policy that has limited the wages and thus damaged the lifestyles of the working class Brit.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 18, 2023 18:46:44 GMT
Make up your mind, do you want the government to control wages or not. First you say they should leave it to the market, then you say they should control them by stopping immigration, which is it? And to save time could you tell me if you would have government put tariffs on imports to keep wages high or let the markets decide that as well? Mass immigration pushes down wages for British citizens - so your damn right I dont support that. It is Government policy (since the Blair administration) to have mass immigration - it is that policy that has limited the wages and thus damaged the lifestyles of the working class Brit. Stop dodging. You said you wanted the market to control wages, then said the government should control them by limiting labour. Its simple enough. If you push wages up to high in your country people will buy their goods from other countries. If you force wages up some jobs will disappear. You want the government to force wages up, but you refuse to consider the consequences.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 18, 2023 22:19:45 GMT
Mass immigration pushes down wages for British citizens - so your damn right I dont support that. It is Government policy (since the Blair administration) to have mass immigration - it is that policy that has limited the wages and thus damaged the lifestyles of the working class Brit. Stop dodging. You said you wanted the market to control wages, then said the government should control them by limiting labour. Its simple enough. If you push wages up to high in your country people will buy their goods from other countries. If you force wages up some jobs will disappear. You want the government to force wages up, but you refuse to consider the consequences. Flooding the market with labour from foreign countries is undermining the UK jobs market - that is the whole point of it. And I do want to force higher wages - if that means that companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate then I'm quite comfortable with the consequences.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 18, 2023 22:49:28 GMT
Stop dodging. You said you wanted the market to control wages, then said the government should control them by limiting labour. Its simple enough. If you push wages up to high in your country people will buy their goods from other countries. If you force wages up some jobs will disappear. You want the government to force wages up, but you refuse to consider the consequences. Flooding the market with labour from foreign countries is undermining the UK jobs market - that is the whole point of it. And I do want to force higher wages - if that means that companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate then I'm quite comfortable with the consequences. You said we should leave it to the market forces. You meant we should have the government control the supply chain so as to push wages up. I understand you got it wrong and that you can't admit to it. So moving on, if the only result was " companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate" then you might be right, but its the other effects I spoke of at the beginning of this latest farce.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 7:37:32 GMT
Because they don't pay their staff £16 an hour. At the moment they are struggling to get staff and make ends meet, so reducing labour will not mean pay rises but lost jobs. As for government diktat, most of it already is. Its government that's stopping labour coming into the country, its government supporting Ukraine that's driving fuel prices and inflation. Are you suggesting they shouldn't interfere. Just leave it to normal competitive pressures, you having a laugh. Regulation, business taxes, workers rights and a thousand other measures stop business exploiting workers. If you just leave it to normal competitive pressures, we would get pay at correct levels African ones. Some pay will rise and some jobs will be lost - which I would consider better than your alternative of importing thousands of people on minimum wage to make coffee. As the average person does not benefit from mass immigration and only sees the negatives then at some point you have to draw a line and say no more, if that means a couple of coffee shops have to close that is a price worth paying - increasing the population by 1 million every 4 years in unsustainable as we are full. So what you consider the average person in the UK is serving tables, coffee bars, pulling carrots and working at McDonalds. Your concept of "the average person" is fuelled by the right wing Murdoch press and convenient examples to support xenophobia and racism. These workers are not the average British citizen. They are at the bottom of the pay scale. The average annual pay for employees per capita is 36,500 pounds per year. Migrants are not depreaasin those wages because every year the amount GOES UP. United Kingdom Annual Household Income per Capita reached 36,516.377 USD in Dec 2021, compared with the previous value of 34,520.664 USD in Dec 2020. UK Annual Household Income per Capita data is updated yearly, available from Dec 1996 to Dec 2021, with an averaged value of 36,558.224 USD. www.ceicdata.com › indicator UK Household Income per Capita, 1996 – 2023 | CEIC Data These so called truths are untrue. They are regurgitated right wing propaganda as part of a Tory on going attempt to generate hatred for the foreigner. It mirrors the way 1930's Germany lied about the detrimental effect Jews had on Germany post WW1 after Jews fought as hard as anyone else and due to national pride and government need for a scapegoat, generated blame for poor economic recovery on Jews when in fact Jewish businesses were some of the most successful. Dont give me this "average British" is being forced to earn less crap. Right now the country is crying out for more employees, to the point of begging women back to work by offering more childcare. And those already retired back to work by raising the tax threshold on pension pots. And loss of employees is one of the principal reasons for poor growth and lack of productivity. The UK should be welcoming migrants and stop blaming them for lying propaganda.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 7:42:52 GMT
Flooding the market with labour from foreign countries is undermining the UK jobs market - that is the whole point of it. And I do want to force higher wages - if that means that companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate then I'm quite comfortable with the consequences. You said we should leave it to the market forces. You meant we should have the government control the supply chain so as to push wages up. I understand you got it wrong and that you can't admit to it. So moving on, if the only result was " companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate" then you might be right, but its the other effects I spoke of at the beginning of this latest farce. Unless you are advocating completely open borders with no restriction on entry you are talking bollocks - and you know it.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 7:43:54 GMT
Stop dodging. You said you wanted the market to control wages, then said the government should control them by limiting labour. Its simple enough. If you push wages up to high in your country people will buy their goods from other countries. If you force wages up some jobs will disappear. You want the government to force wages up, but you refuse to consider the consequences. Flooding the market with labour from foreign countries is undermining the UK jobs market - that is the whole point of it. And I do want to force higher wages - if that means that companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate then I'm quite comfortable with the consequences. On the contrary. It is quite possible that you will be squealing about the cost to the taxpayer of the growing benefits cost, including childcare and "wrap around" child support. Of the struggles of holiday companies, and lack of resources provided by the local council because taxpayers are paying less council tax since they lost their jobs. I dont think i have ever heard anyone say they dont mind massive layoffs and unemployment.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 7:46:36 GMT
Dont give me this "average British" is being forced to earn less crap. Right now the country is crying out for more employees, to the point of begging women back to work by offering more childcare. And those already retired back to work by raising the tax threshold on pension pots. And loss of employees is one of the principal reasons for poor growth and lack of productivity. The UK should be welcoming migrants and stop blaming them for lying propaganda. oh we are not going through all this nonsense again are we? We have had mass immigration to fill these jobs for over 2 decades and it has not made a dent in the UK's poor productivity problem. Perhaps it's time to consider that it is the cause not the solution.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 19, 2023 7:47:41 GMT
Flooding the market with labour from foreign countries is undermining the UK jobs market - that is the whole point of it. And I do want to force higher wages - if that means that companies who have a business model predicated on paying poverty pay can no longer operate then I'm quite comfortable with the consequences. On the contrary. It is quite possible that you will be squealing about the cost to the taxpayer of the growing benefits cost, including childcare and "wrap around" child support. Of the struggles of holiday companies, and lack of resources provided by the local council because taxpayers are paying less council tax since they lost their jobs. I dont think i have ever heard anyone say they dont mind massive layoffs and unemployment. Mass immigration has not led to any economic improvement for the average UK citizen - so what is the point of it?
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Post by Toreador on Mar 19, 2023 7:50:10 GMT
Some pay will rise and some jobs will be lost - which I would consider better than your alternative of importing thousands of people on minimum wage to make coffee. As the average person does not benefit from mass immigration and only sees the negatives then at some point you have to draw a line and say no more, if that means a couple of coffee shops have to close that is a price worth paying - increasing the population by 1 million every 4 years in unsustainable as we are full. So what you consider the average person in the UK is serving tables, coffee bars, pulling carrots and working at McDonalds. Your concept of "the average person" is fuelled by the right wing Murdoch press and convenient examples to support xenophobia and racism. These workers are not the average British citizen. They are at the bottom of the pay scale. The average annual pay for employees per capita is 36,500 pounds per year. Migrants are not depreaasin those wages because every year the amount GOES UP. United Kingdom Annual Household Income per Capita reached 36,516.377 USD in Dec 2021, compared with the previous value of 34,520.664 USD in Dec 2020. UK Annual Household Income per Capita data is updated yearly, available from Dec 1996 to Dec 2021, with an averaged value of 36,558.224 USD. www.ceicdata.com › indicator UK Household Income per Capita, 1996 – 2023 | CEIC Data These so called truths are untrue. They are regurgitated right wing propaganda as part of a Tory on going attempt to generate hatred for the foreigner. It mirrors the way 1930's Germany lied about the detrimental effect Jews had on Germany post WW1 after Jews fought as hard as anyone else and due to national pride and government need for a scapegoat, generated blame for poor economic recovery on Jews when in fact Jewish businesses were some of the most successful. Dont give me this "average British" is being forced to earn less crap. Right now the country is crying out for more employees, to the point of begging women back to work by offering more childcare. And those already retired back to work by raising the tax threshold on pension pots. And loss of employees is one of the principal reasons for poor growth and lack of productivity. The UK should be welcoming migrants and stop blaming them for lying propaganda. Many of them aren't even British citizens.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 19, 2023 7:55:10 GMT
You havent even begun to reply tp my point.
THE AVERAGE BRIT HAS NOT BEEN DETRIMENTALLY AFFECTED BY MIGRATION. The pay of the average British worker has gone up. The average British worker does not work in the fields and at McDonalds in the evening and do a night shift to make ends meet. THE AVERAGE BRIT IS NOT AFFECTED BY MIGRATION. The average naturally xenophobic racist is not your average Brit. But they try to speak for someone else they call the average Brit in order to justify their dislike of dark skinned foreigners. I have never heard complaints that Ukranians and Chinese migrants have undercut wages.
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