|
|
Post by colbops on Oct 30, 2022 19:36:06 GMT
Colbops wrote: At least with PR, people can look around Europe and the wider world and see examples of how it can work. We had no such opportunity in June 2016.  People could do that, but I don't get the impression that many are doing that, or that there is much demand for a change in the UK electoral system. That being the case, those that want it are going to have to sell it, and convince those they are trying to sell it to, that it should be high up their priority list otherwise it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 30, 2022 20:28:09 GMT
"At least with PR, people can look around Europe and the wider world and see examples of how it can work."
But as an advocate for PR you of all people should be aware that such a system opens the door to political factions that I'm sure you'd prefer were not admitted.
The latest instance being the Sweden Democrats who are now playing the role of kingmakers in the Swedish parliament even though they are not part of the official governing coalition.
Given that perhaps 20% of the electorate in most western liberal democracies are inclined to support and vote for such 'far right' or authoritarian parties is this something you would like to see replicated in Britain?
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 31, 2022 8:23:20 GMT
Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that the UK reform its electoral system. If you're not, cool, nothing to discuss then. No im a scottish independence supporter , who wants my country and its politicians out of westmisnter. For the purposes of debate , and politeness as this is a predominatly english membership forum , im simply pointing out a majority in your country dont like FPTP and wish to change it.
If you dont want to talk about it ....cool.........see you laters. Conversation over.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 31, 2022 8:25:54 GMT
"At least with PR, people can look around Europe and the wider world and see examples of how it can work." But as an advocate for PR you of all people should be aware that such a system opens the door to political factions that I'm sure you'd prefer were not admitted. The latest instance being the Sweden Democrats who are now playing the role of kingmakers in the Swedish parliament even though they are not part of the official governing coalition. Given that perhaps 20% of the electorate in most western liberal democracies are inclined to support and vote for such 'far right' or authoritarian parties is this something you would like to see replicated in Britain? Dont agree. All factions of society must have thier voice and representation , however much we dislike them.
I said the same years ago , as did many others regarding Griffin of the BNP. Cant stand the man or his party , but i will defend his right to say what he has to say. If people vote him then so be it.
We are supposed to be a western liberal demcoracy , not north korea.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 31, 2022 10:49:57 GMT
Proportional representation means not just having to listen to political ideas you may not care for it can also mean admitting those who have those ideas into the political tent.
In the 2010 election the BNP received more votes than the SNP, the Greens, Sinn Fein or Plaid Cymru. Yet while these four parties won 15 seats between them, the BNP got none.
In a PR system they would have won at least as many as the SNP (which won 6). It was this aspect of PR that I was suggesting that advocates for it like Cartertonian might not care for.
|
|
|
|
Post by colbops on Oct 31, 2022 18:59:34 GMT
Proportional representation means not just having to listen to political ideas you may not care for it can also mean admitting those who have those ideas into the political tent. In the 2010 election the BNP received more votes than the SNP, the Greens, Sinn Fein or Plaid Cymru. Yet while these four parties won 15 seats between them, the BNP got none. In a PR system they would have won at least as many as the SNP (which won 6). It was this aspect of PR that I was suggesting that advocates for it like Cartertonian might not care for. While I understand your points, I'm not convinced you can look at previous elections and say X would have got Y seats etc, as voting behaviours would likely have been very different with a different voting system in play. My concern is no-one is setting out a definitive structure for a PR system for consideration. PR is a very broad concept and it could be implemented in all sorts of ways. I don't see how anyone could possibly entertain voting for PR as a concept and then allow MPs to work out the detail afterwards - talk about a conflict of interest. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 31, 2022 19:27:07 GMT
My remarks are really addressed to Cartertonian who has 'historically' been a very vocal advocate for PR. I'm merely highlighting the fact (for him) that countries in which 'far-right' or otherwise 'authoritarian' factions have achieved a significant parliamentary presence - Sweden being the latest instance - all have some form of PR.
Even in Germany where the threshold for a party to take seats in the Bundestag is 5% that hasn't prevented the far-right presence that Carty is so very concerned about.
There's no reason to suppose that a similar outcome might not occur in Britain should a PR system be adopted.
|
|
