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Post by Vinny on Oct 28, 2022 17:35:26 GMT
Sadly "Representative democracy" became neither "representative" or particularly "democratic" for myself and a lot of people.
The last time a party of government had more than 50% of the vote was 1935.
It is the case most times that more people vote against the party of government than for it.
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Post by colbops on Oct 29, 2022 10:17:20 GMT
Sadly "Representative democracy" became neither "representative" or particularly "democratic" for myself and a lot of people. The last time a party of government had more than 50% of the vote was 1935. It is the case most times that more people vote against the party of government than for it. You seem to be confused. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Oct 30, 2022 10:07:38 GMT
Vinny wrote:
Colbops wrote:
In what way is he confused?
What he said is accurate. The last time any single-party government held a true majority (of the votes cast, not of seats won in our skewed system) was 1935.
The coalition government of 2010 won 59.1% of the vote...and the clue is in the title.
In the modern era, the only people who support FPTP are those who wish their minority view to be imposed on the majority. Surely the antithesis of democracy?
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 10:18:03 GMT
Vinny wrote: Colbops wrote: In what way is he confused? What he said is accurate. The last time any single-party government held a true majority (of the votes cast, not of seats won in our skewed system) was 1935. The coalition government of 2010 won 59.1% of the vote...and the clue is in the title. In the modern era, the only people who support FPTP are those who wish their minority view to be imposed on the majority. Surely the antithesis of democracy? Fully agree. FPTP two party politics , with a wide range of differing political views crammed in between dumb and dumber while the public is guided down an anti democrtic alleyway to vote for either is long past its sell by date , and in my opinion part of the problem in the breakdown of the uk today.
The netherlands i beleive with their PR system have had one prime minister since 2010 , while the uk with its laughable stable fptp system ,has had 6 since 2016.
Tony blairs infamous 2001 landslide , with its lowest ever post war turnout , won on 20 % of the entre electorate is proof if any more is needed on how this disgracefull anti democratic system disenfrachises uk voters.
England i believe is the only country in western europe that i can think of that doesnt have some from of PR.
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2022 10:32:00 GMT
Accurately representing the views of everyone is not the only purpose of democracy. Some might even say this is rather high and unrealistic bar that no system manages
While the UK's system can become tumultuous when opinion is very evenly split, the alternative is even worse - a significantly unaccountable 'government' patched together out of bits and pieces arrived at through a negotiation between several parties, none of whom is particularly accountable for Frankenstein monster that results
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 10:42:39 GMT
PR could allow crazies a sniff of power, and as a method of reform it will end up doing the opposite by ending up deadlocked. There would be no room for reform. Coalitions are weak and disappointing, as seen by the last one we had.
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 10:47:56 GMT
Accurately representing the views of everyone is not the only purpose of democracy. Some might even say this is rather high and unrealistic bar that no system manages While the UK's system can become tumultuous when opinion is very evenly split, the alternative is even worse - a significantly unaccountable 'government' patched together out of bits and pieces arrived at through a negotiation between several parties, none of whom is particularly accountable for Frankenstein monster that results I dont think anyone is advocating a truly representative and perfect voting system. What the dicussion is about is how poor the old oudated fptp two party system is in the uk with modern politics and views , and how there are better sytems , however unperfect , out there. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 10:52:17 GMT
PR could allow crazies a sniff of power, and as a method of reform it will end up doing the opposite by ending up deadlocked. There would be no room for reform. Coalitions are weak and disappointing, as seen by the last one we had. I disagree. Although im not a tory or lib dem , i thought the coalition westminster government one of the better ones of my lifetime.
Many countires use PR or forms of pr , especially in europe , yet the uk with its fptp system appears to be the most politically unstable country in europe ,overtaking even italy.
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Post by colbops on Oct 30, 2022 10:58:58 GMT
Vinny wrote: Colbops wrote: In what way is he confused? Put simply, he seems to be confused as to the meanings of 'representative' and 'democracy' in 'representative Democracy' as it pertains to the UK The representative in the title simply refers to the fact that a person is chosen to represent each constituency of the UK in parliament. The democracy in the title simply refers to the fact that the person is chosen via a vote by the electorate within that constituency. The representatives that are chosen by way of a vote represent their entire constituency, not just those within the constituency that are eligible to vote and who voted for them. The Government is not elected, the Government is appointed by the person that the Monarch invites to form a Government. Whilst the stats for how much of the Vote share the Part(y/ies) of Government get, it is an irrelevance when it comes to the 'Representative' in 'Representative Democracy' Similarly this argument that our system of government is less democratic than it was in 1935 shouldn't be based on this erroneous understanding of 'representative'. If anything the UK system is more 'Democratic' than it was in 1935 since the voting age was lowered to 18 since then, giving more people the franchise, enabling more people to participate in the vote to determine the representative for their constituency. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 10:59:28 GMT
PR could allow crazies a sniff of power, and as a method of reform it will end up doing the opposite by ending up deadlocked. There would be no room for reform. Coalitions are weak and disappointing, as seen by the last one we had. I disagree. Although im not a tory or lib dem , i thought the coalition westminster government one of the better ones of my lifetime.
Many countires use PR or forms of pr , especially in europe , yet the uk with its fptp system appears to be the most politically unstable country in europe ,overtaking even italy.
I would argue that it destroyed the Lib Dems. They compromised on their key policies and betrayed their voters, and all for a sniff of power. They may have been more successful the next time round. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2022 11:11:58 GMT
What the dicussion is about is how poor the old oudated fptp two party system is in the uk with modern politics and views , and how there are better sytems , however unperfect , out there. It's outdated if you don't like it. Anything successful can be called outdated, because successful things tend to hang about and continue. I'm saying that it isn't a better system and notionally 'representing people' can't be the highest (or only) priority for democracy. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 11:24:16 GMT
I disagree. Although im not a tory or lib dem , i thought the coalition westminster government one of the better ones of my lifetime.
Many countires use PR or forms of pr , especially in europe , yet the uk with its fptp system appears to be the most politically unstable country in europe ,overtaking even italy.
I would argue that it destroyed the Lib Dems. They compromised on their key policies and betrayed their voters, and all for a sniff of power. They may have been more successful the next time round. clearly it did , but that doesnt take away the fact i thought it was one of the better of not best uk governments of recent times. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 11:25:54 GMT
What the dicussion is about is how poor the old oudated fptp two party system is in the uk with modern politics and views , and how there are better sytems , however unperfect , out there. It's outdated if you don't like it. Anything successful can be called outdated, because successful things tend to hang about and continue. I'm saying that it isn't a better system and notionally 'representing people' can't be the highest (or only) priority for democracy. Many people dont like it. Hence why many countires dont use fptp.
You cant keep using the same tired old system simply for traditions sake. Clearly im sure anyone politically aware in the uk would argue fptp is past its sell by date.
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2022 11:28:29 GMT
Many people dont like it. Hence why many countires dont use fptp. You cant keep using the same tired old system simply for traditions sake. Clearly im sure anyone politically aware in the uk would argue fptp is past its sell by date. Sure. Some people don't like it, and, as you note previously, no system is 'perfect'. I think the weaknesses of pr make it far more dangerous than FPTP |
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 11:34:29 GMT
Many people dont like it. Hence why many countires dont use fptp. You cant keep using the same tired old system simply for traditions sake. Clearly im sure anyone politically aware in the uk would argue fptp is past its sell by date. I think the weaknesses of pr make it far more dangerous than FPTP ...and yet the evidence of the uk and its "stable" fptp system against the so called "weaker" pr of many european countires doesnt quite stack up as i said earlier with regard to the netherlands and its stable pr democracy , with one pm since 2010 , and the uk with 6 pms in 6 years.
Change is a terrible thing to some people , yet wether we like it or not , change happens.
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