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Post by see2 on Feb 8, 2023 9:13:03 GMT
Maybe, but the apparently the markets need the right changes to be made. The right changes would be to sort out British politics, sort out commerce and industry and educate people to have a work and honesty ethic. I agree except I would have included 'and to educate people'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 9:35:47 GMT
Reductions in taxation need to be funded That's incorrect. Spending needs to be funded, tax cuts are (more or less) free. You can't spend with no funding - ie spending needs to be funded to be spending. I bring this up because it occurs to me this inverted language could be the result of an upside down world view in which the government and civil service are considered to be funding the rest of society by not taxing them If you believe tax cuts are money for nothing you clearly believe in money for nothing fairy tale economics. Why have taxes at all if cutting them is "more or less free"? Which is of course utter nonsense in the real world. Because in the real world tax cuts DO have to be funded either by spending cuts, increased taxes in other areas, or more borrowing. Or some combination thereof. And trying to deny that reality with semantics will fool no one except fellow Trussonomic idealogues eager to believe. If Truss herself thought as you do and believed tax cuts were free it would certainly explain a lot. The markets didn't agree with her though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 9:50:02 GMT
The unnecessary straw that broke the Camel's back ? depends on whether you consider growth necessary or not.. That tax cuts which mostly benefitted the better off would generate growth is an unproven ideological assumption. There was never any clear argument as to exactly how they would do so. In practice much of it would likely have either ended up in bricks and mortar, pushing property prices ever higher - the kind of boom that helps no one except those who already own property and landlords leeching ever more money out of the pockets of productive workers - or would have ended up being squirrelled away into offshore accounts. It is hard to see the link between this and growth. And the austerity from 2010 onwards choked off growth into something utterly anaemic compared to what had gone before. And you wanted to fund tax cuts by more of the same, imagining that you'd improve growth without explaining how? And even Thatcher's tax cuts were never unfunded. Many of them were paid for by increases in other mostly indirect taxes, especially VAT. Also by cuts in other areas. And by the proceeds of privatisation. Thatcher herself - the supposed role model - believed in sound money and would never have done what Truss did and come up with a bunch of entirely unfunded tax cuts. She would have found a way to pay for them.
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Post by Orac on Feb 8, 2023 10:13:34 GMT
Tax cuts are free, it is the government's spending that costs money and needs to be funded.
If tax cuts can be said to 'cost money', then the government can also be said to be funding society with any relative absence of taxation. This is patently absurd and an inversion of reality.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 11:42:46 GMT
Tax cuts are free, it is the government's spending that costs money and needs to be funded. If tax cuts can be said to 'cost money', then the government can also be said to be funding society with any relative absence of taxation. This is patently absurd and an inversion of reality. Bollocks, for reasons already explained but which you choose to ignore. Again, nothing comes for free, not even tax cuts. They have to be paid for by spending cuts, increased taxes elsewhere, or more borrowing. That is the de facto reality however much you want to pretend otherwise with unconvincing semantics.
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Post by Toreador on Feb 8, 2023 11:53:28 GMT
Tax cuts are free, it is the government's spending that costs money and needs to be funded. If tax cuts can be said to 'cost money', then the government can also be said to be funding society with any relative absence of taxation. This is patently absurd and an inversion of reality. Bollocks, for reasons already explained but which you choose to ignore. Again, nothing comes for free, not even tax cuts. They have to be paid for by spending cuts, increased taxes elsewhere, or more borrowing. That is the de facto reality however much you want to pretend otherwise with unconvincing semantics. Economies would provide a much better solution if only those who govern had even the remotest clue of how to implement them.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 8, 2023 12:40:07 GMT
depends on whether you consider growth necessary or not.. That tax cuts which mostly benefitted the better off would generate growth is an unproven ideological assumption. Well a record tax burden certainly has not generated growth - and all you can offer is even higher taxation...
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Post by Orac on Feb 8, 2023 13:36:06 GMT
Tax cuts are free, it is the government's spending that costs money and needs to be funded. If tax cuts can be said to 'cost money', then the government can also be said to be funding society with any relative absence of taxation. This is patently absurd and an inversion of reality. Bollocks, for reasons already explained but which you choose to ignore. Again, nothing comes for free, not even tax cuts. This is just a distortion of language. The tax cut itself doesn't cost anything and doesn't require funding. Hence, even if if you no money at all, you can still cut taxes (if they exist) This might seem to be a trivial matter of language, but i suspect it isn't. I suspect you have a picture of the relationship between citizens, government and funding that is functionally upside down- I.e. one in which the government and public sector funds society to the degree it doesn't tax it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 13:56:54 GMT
That tax cuts which mostly benefitted the better off would generate growth is an unproven ideological assumption. Well a record tax burden certainly has not generated growth - and all you can offer is even higher taxation... Whilst no fan of New Labour, growth was substantially higher in those years than under the Tories since then, in spite of big spending increases as well as tax increases in the form of stealth taxes associated with New Labour. So they must have been doing something right that the Tories have failed to do since then. One obvious lesson to be learned is that austerity tends to impede growth. So more of it to fund tax cuts is highly unlikely to deliver growth. Another is that tax cuts unfunded tend to crash the economy. If you want viable tax cuts you need to relearn one of the vital tenets of thatcherism, ie the notion of sound money, that nothing comes for free and everything needs to be paid for somehow including tax cuts. Because what Magrathea utterly fails to grasp is that funding can be spoken of in two directions. Eg that whilst tax rises might be necessary to fund spending increases, spending cuts might be necessary to fund tax cuts. The latter do not come for free except in the realms of fantasy economics. Tax cuts financed by austerity will not deliver growth. Tax cuts funded by increased borrowing is also likely to be economically damaging in a way that undermines growth. So it's a chicken and egg situation. If you want tax cuts without austerity or more borrowing, both of which will hold back growth, then you need growth first to be able to finance the tax cuts. So what has to be done is that taxation itself needs to be rejigged, likewise spending, rather than cut, in ways that encourage growth. In other words you somehow need to generate the growth first to be able to finance the tax cuts. Unfunded tax cuts will not generate growth. Even Thatcher knew that much. Which is why she started out by redistributing the burden of taxation from direct to indirect taxation as a means of boosting the economy rather than simply slashing the overall tax burden without saying how it would be paid for. In this crucial area, Truss was no Thatcher, having utterly discarded one of the central tenets of Thatcherism, ie the need for sound money and balanced books.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 14:14:51 GMT
Bollocks, for reasons already explained but which you choose to ignore. Again, nothing comes for free, not even tax cuts. This is just a distortion of language. The tax cut itself doesn't cost anything and doesn't require funding. Hence, even if if you no money at all, you can still cut taxes (if they exist) This might seem to be a trivial matter of language, but i suspect it isn't. I suspect you have a picture of the relationship between citizens, government and funding that is functionally upside down- I.e. one in which the government and public sector funds society to the degree it doesn't tax it. You are of course talking nonsense, and seeing my refusal to fall in with such nonsense, as evidence of a certain perspective, a reason to try and place me into some form of ideologically convenient (to you) pigeon hole. Funding can be viewed in several ways on the basis that nothing is ever for free including reductions in taxation. In trying to stress that tax cuts are free, that they have no cost you are the epitome of a Trussite believer in fantasy economics. Tax is necessary to fund public spending. There is a cost associated with public spending which needs to be paid for by taxation. But tax cuts do not come for free. They come at the cost of reduced spending or increased borrowing, both of which can be economically damaging and reduce growth. So any cuts in taxation themselves need to be funded by increased borrowing or reduced spending, UNLESS the economy can be induced to grow sufficiently to allow tax cuts to be afforded without reduced spending or increased borrowing. They have to be afforded somehow though. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Nothing comes for free. Just as increased spending needs to be funded either by increased taxes, increased borrowing, or by the proceeds of economic growth, so reduced taxes need to be funded by reduced spending, increased borrowing, or the proceeds of economic growth. Your politically motivated attempt to deny economic reality using semantics is wholly unconvincing to anyone other than an ideologically driven, economically illiterate, Trussite. Who on earth seriously believes that tax cuts are free money without economic cost somewhere? Do you believe in magic money trees? If tax cuts really were for free we'd cut all taxes to nothing, yet every intelligent and reasonable person knows that this would not be free but would instead involve massive costs.
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Post by ratcliff on Feb 8, 2023 16:31:05 GMT
The Budget didn't set Departmental budgets - that is done at the Spending Review. OK - there is an argument that the spending review should have been done at the same time but as it was not you cannot claim that the tax cuts would have led to extra borrowing. Well they promised no return to austerity and the markets certainly seemed to believe the tax cuts were unfunded, thereby necessitating more borrowing, and reacted accordingly. And what they tended to believe is a little bit more credible that whatever little old you might choose to think. Fact is to put in place such massive tax cuts without explaining how they were to be paid for whilst promising no return to austerity was clearly disastrous. There was every appearance of them being unfunded. What massive tax cuts? The reduction in the top rate would have been peanuts and to claim stopping proposed raises that hadn't yet happened is a massive cut is made up fairy tales
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Post by ratcliff on Feb 8, 2023 16:38:07 GMT
What is seriously sad is that none of the mainstream parties have run this country even adequately since 1945.....and before. Politics in this and many other countries needs a good kick up the arse.....several times. A dose of socialism under Attlee was a well earned necessity, even if he did take it too far. The idea that others would have come up with a perfect answer to the well earned needs of the population is pure conjecture. Despite the excessive anti-NL propaganda there is no question that NL was a breath of fresh air in politics, and but for the international financial meltdown that hit all Western economies from the outside, NL would never have lost the 2010 election. I put the majority of blame for UK political weakness on the media. For me it seems as though it is run by a lot of immature smart mouthed grammar school knob-heads more interested in 'my side must win' instead of the country must win. Hmmm, you have a large chip about grammar schools (generally state education) and consider grammar school pupils to be ''knob heads'' .......... you obviously failed the 11+
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 16:40:08 GMT
A dose of socialism under Attlee was a well earned necessity, even if he did take it too far. The idea that others would have come up with a perfect answer to the well earned needs of the population is pure conjecture. Despite the excessive anti-NL propaganda there is no question that NL was a breath of fresh air in politics, and but for the international financial meltdown that hit all Western economies from the outside, NL would never have lost the 2010 election. I put the majority of blame for UK political weakness on the media. For me it seems as though it is run by a lot of immature smart mouthed grammar school knob-heads more interested in 'my side must win' instead of the country must win. Hmmm, you have a large chip about grammar schools (generally state education) and consider grammar school pupils to be ''knob heads'' .......... you obviously failed the 11+ You obviously enjoy jumping to negative conclusions about others if they dare to state a few home truths.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 16:47:14 GMT
Well they promised no return to austerity and the markets certainly seemed to believe the tax cuts were unfunded, thereby necessitating more borrowing, and reacted accordingly. And what they tended to believe is a little bit more credible that whatever little old you might choose to think. Fact is to put in place such massive tax cuts without explaining how they were to be paid for whilst promising no return to austerity was clearly disastrous. There was every appearance of them being unfunded. What massive tax cuts? The reduction in the top rate would have been peanuts and to claim stopping proposed raises that hadn't yet happened is a massive cut is made up fairy tales Hardly peanuts. And there was also the wholly unfunded cut in the base rate, plus cuts in stamp duty and so on, amounting to a substantial unfunded giveaway of £20-£30 billion. And the intended reversal of planned corporation tax rises created a larger fiscal black hole for the future than the markets anticipated, again unfunded. That the markets were spooked and our economy tanked is a matter of public record so your denialism in support of the Truss agenda is merely a sign of your own intellectual ignorance. Theory is one thing. Actual events and proven outcomes cannot be ignored by anyone whose head is not up their arse.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 8, 2023 17:51:12 GMT
Well a record tax burden certainly has not generated growth - and all you can offer is even higher taxation... Whilst no fan of New Labour, growth was substantially higher in those years than under the Tories since then, in spite of big spending increases as well as tax increases in the form of stealth taxes associated with New Labour. So they must have been doing something right that the Tories have failed to do since then. One obvious lesson to be learned is that austerity tends to impede growth. So more of it to fund tax cuts is highly unlikely to deliver growth. Another is that tax cuts unfunded tend to crash the economy. If you want viable tax cuts you need to relearn one of the vital tenets of thatcherism, ie the notion of sound money, that nothing comes for free and everything needs to be paid for somehow including tax cuts. Because what Magrathea utterly fails to grasp is that funding can be spoken of in two directions. Eg that whilst tax rises might be necessary to fund spending increases, spending cuts might be necessary to fund tax cuts. The latter do not come for free except in the realms of fantasy economics. Tax cuts financed by austerity will not deliver growth. Tax cuts funded by increased borrowing is also likely to be economically damaging in a way that undermines growth. So it's a chicken and egg situation. If you want tax cuts without austerity or more borrowing, both of which will hold back growth, then you need growth first to be able to finance the tax cuts. So what has to be done is that taxation itself needs to be rejigged, likewise spending, rather than cut, in ways that encourage growth. In other words you somehow need to generate the growth first to be able to finance the tax cuts. Unfunded tax cuts will not generate growth. Even Thatcher knew that much. Which is why she started out by redistributing the burden of taxation from direct to indirect taxation as a means of boosting the economy rather than simply slashing the overall tax burden without saying how it would be paid for. In this crucial area, Truss was no Thatcher, having utterly discarded one of the central tenets of Thatcherism, ie the need for sound money and balanced books. Well as we never had any austerity how it could impede growth is unclear. Since 2010 what we did have were a record tax burden, record borrowing, record debt and record money printing. The idea that we just didnt have enough of all that to give us growth is rather amusing tbh.
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