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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:30:54 GMT
well i disagree . for politics to work and reflect the electorate , it needs a modern voting system and not the two party fptp stitch up. You also need diverse parties reflecting the different shades of politics , not two parties offering the same shite with a fag papers width in difference of policy.
you highlight an important point though in terms of new labour. The fact is new labour no longer represent the old working class of scotland and england hence their decline in popualrity , and why they need the anti democratic help of the two party fptp stitich up to fall into power rather than popualr support of the voting public.
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnt result is the sign of madness as they say. I reject blairsim utterly , and may i point out it was the blairites who lost scotland , not corbyn , and the blairites who sowed the seeds of labours destruction in the red wall.
Labour doesn’t represent the demographic that was known as ‘working class’ now , if it ever did. ok thanks for clarifying that. The point is , it needs them , and isnt getting their votes.
How new labour gained power i nthe past was capturing the working class left wing vote , as it had no where else to go , while courting the tory marginals in england. wwithout the working class vote , wether you represent them or not , you are nothing , hence why you are out of power in scotland and england , and cant deal with the consitutional issues such as brexit( working class supported by and large) and scot indy( again mainly working class support)
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:33:51 GMT
well i disagree . for politics to work and reflect the electorate , it needs a modern voting system and not the two party fptp stitch up. You also need diverse parties reflecting the different shades of politics , not two parties offering the same shite with a fag papers width in difference of policy.
you highlight an important point though in terms of new labour. The fact is new labour no longer represent the old working class of scotland and england hence their decline in popualrity , and why they need the anti democratic help of the two party fptp stitich up to fall into power rather than popualr support of the voting public.
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnt result is the sign of madness as they say. I reject blairsim utterly , and may i point out it was the blairites who lost scotland , not corbyn , and the blairites who sowed the seeds of labours destruction in the red wall.
It’s as obsolete as the Whigs. thats fine if thats your take on it. My point is people dont want new labour either , so where does that leave the new labour movement in general? up shit creek withhout a paddle .
without fptp , labour are obsolete as they represent very few people as they stand. The tories at least jumped on the working class brexit bandwagon , while labour patronised them and went against the people with predictable results.
The two party system is dead , hence the current political meltdown.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 13:55:51 GMT
Labour doesn’t represent the demographic that was known as ‘working class’ now , if it ever did. ok thanks for clarifying that. The point is , it needs them , and isnt getting their votes.
How new labour gained power i nthe past was capturing the working class left wing vote , as it had no where else to go , while courting the tory marginals in england. wwithout the working class vote , wether you represent them or not , you are nothing , hence why you are out of power in scotland and england , and cant deal with the consitutional issues such as brexit( working class supported by and large) and scot indy( again mainly working class support)
Indeed. Labour little to say to the white aspiring working class , especially men. Imo that’s why so many working class people voted Tory . White people havent become Tories en masse but the Tories were the ones who didn’t employ rhetoric that either ignored them or expected them to apologise for slavery and support the lie of white privilege. In the old days a working class family might get a council house and live there for all their lives. The threat of the consequences of industrial action was reduced for families who's bread winners has council houses . Thatcher changed all that by selling the council houses off cheap and committing us all to have the stark choice of mortgages that lock us in to wage slavery or private renting that is as expensive as mortgage payments . There’s not enough social housing to make it relevant . Until that’s fixed a true Labour Party will never emerge ..imo.
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:59:31 GMT
ok thanks for clarifying that. The point is , it needs them , and isnt getting their votes.
How new labour gained power i nthe past was capturing the working class left wing vote , as it had no where else to go , while courting the tory marginals in england. wwithout the working class vote , wether you represent them or not , you are nothing , hence why you are out of power in scotland and england , and cant deal with the consitutional issues such as brexit( working class supported by and large) and scot indy( again mainly working class support)
Indeed. Labour little to say to the white aspiring working class , especially men. Imo that’s why so many working class people voted Tory . White people havent become Tories en masse but the Tories were the ones who didn’t employ rhetoric that either ignored them or expected them to apologise for slavery and support the lie of white privilege. In the old days a working class family might get a council house and live there for all their lives. The threat of the consequences of industrial action was reduced for families who's bread winners has council houses . Thatcher changed all that by selling the council houses off cheap and committing us all to have the stark choice of mortgages that lock us in to wage slavery or private renting that is as expensive as mortgage payments . There’s not enough social housing to make it relevant . Until that’s fixed a true Labour Party will never emerge ..imo. The whole uk political system is completely broken , and the labour issues we are discussing are merely symptoms of that breakdown rather then the problem itself.
i agree though with much of what you say above. Dot forget , though , thatcher started right to buy , new labour continued it , and thatcher at least had the sense to build more houses than new labour , while blair massivley increased the housing bubble and cost of living for the poor.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 14:01:45 GMT
It’s as obsolete as the Whigs. thats fine if thats your take on it. My point is people dont want new labour either , so where does that leave the new labour movement in general? up shit creek withhout a paddle .
without fptp , labour are obsolete as they represent very few people as they stand. The tories at least jumped on the working class brexit bandwagon , while labour patronised them and went against the people with predictable results.
The two party system is dead , hence the current political meltdown.
Imo our two main parties are the equivalent of Manchester United and Manchester City. The main difference is the rhetoric . After that there is a slight difference in how they get into trouble but the working public ends up paying the bills . A different voting system may be the answer but is it the answer in the countries where different voting systems are employed? Other systems still have problems afaik , just different ones.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 14:05:11 GMT
Indeed. Labour little to say to the white aspiring working class , especially men. Imo that’s why so many working class people voted Tory . White people havent become Tories en masse but the Tories were the ones who didn’t employ rhetoric that either ignored them or expected them to apologise for slavery and support the lie of white privilege. In the old days a working class family might get a council house and live there for all their lives. The threat of the consequences of industrial action was reduced for families who's bread winners has council houses . Thatcher changed all that by selling the council houses off cheap and committing us all to have the stark choice of mortgages that lock us in to wage slavery or private renting that is as expensive as mortgage payments . There’s not enough social housing to make it relevant . Until that’s fixed a true Labour Party will never emerge ..imo. The whole uk political system is completely broken , and the labour issues we are discussing are merely symptoms of that breakdown rather then the problem itself.
i agree though with much of what you say above. Dot forget , though , thatcher started right to buy , new labour continued it , and thatcher at least had the sense to build more houses than new labour , while blair massivley increased the housing bubble and cost of living for the poor.
Indeed. I pretty much agree with everything you pointed out. I’m just not sure how we solve the problem .
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 14:07:38 GMT
thats fine if thats your take on it. My point is people dont want new labour either , so where does that leave the new labour movement in general? up shit creek withhout a paddle .
without fptp , labour are obsolete as they represent very few people as they stand. The tories at least jumped on the working class brexit bandwagon , while labour patronised them and went against the people with predictable results.
The two party system is dead , hence the current political meltdown.
Other systems still have problems afaik , just different ones. of course. The argument isnt wether there is a perfect political system , just one thats much better then the shite you use for westmisnter. I would argue there is , and fptp is an outdated tool that is irrelevant in the modern world and disenfrachises much of englands electorate , never mind the rest.
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 14:09:52 GMT
The whole uk political system is completely broken , and the labour issues we are discussing are merely symptoms of that breakdown rather then the problem itself.
i agree though with much of what you say above. Dot forget , though , thatcher started right to buy , new labour continued it , and thatcher at least had the sense to build more houses than new labour , while blair massivley increased the housing bubble and cost of living for the poor.
I’m just not sure how we solve the problem . dont vote labour or tory. Vote others , till you smash the fptp stitch up as we did in scotland.
Ukip started the ball rolling , hardly won any seats but terrified the tories and labour that much they stopped arguing for a while to concentrate their fire on farage and even offered up a brexit ref without farage so much a sitting down in the commons.
You wont get anywhere playing the same old game in the same old system.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 14:54:32 GMT
Other systems still have problems afaik , just different ones. of course. The argument isnt wether there is a perfect political system , just one thats much better then the shite you use for westmisnter. I would argue there is , and fptp is an outdated tool that is irrelevant in the modern world and disenfrachises much of englands electorate , never mind the rest. That’s only if fptp was the cause of the problem . I think that’s debatable.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 14:56:14 GMT
I’m just not sure how we solve the problem . dont vote labour or tory. Vote others , till you smash the fptp stitch up as we did in scotland.
Ukip started the ball rolling , hardly won any seats but terrified the tories and labour that much they stopped arguing for a while to concentrate their fire on farage and even offered up a brexit ref without farage so much a sitting down in the commons.
You wont get anywhere playing the same old game in the same old system.
PR is being used in other countries. It hasn’t solved their problems because it creates other problems .
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 14:59:44 GMT
of course. The argument isnt wether there is a perfect political system , just one thats much better then the shite you use for westmisnter. I would argue there is , and fptp is an outdated tool that is irrelevant in the modern world and disenfrachises much of englands electorate , never mind the rest. That’s only if fptp was the cause of the problem . I think that’s debatable. ok . What your take on the uk political problems and thier roots , and how does fptp alleviate those problems?
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 15:01:58 GMT
dont vote labour or tory. Vote others , till you smash the fptp stitch up as we did in scotland.
Ukip started the ball rolling , hardly won any seats but terrified the tories and labour that much they stopped arguing for a while to concentrate their fire on farage and even offered up a brexit ref without farage so much a sitting down in the commons.
You wont get anywhere playing the same old game in the same old system.
PR is being used in other countries. It hasn’t solved their problems because it creates other problems . i havent said or hinted it solves all problems. I believe it helps enfranchise voters a bit more not solve the ills of the world. scotland ireland and wales all use forms of pr , while merry old england is still stuck voting for the same tired old two parties in a dodgy fptp system .
I dont think this helps , nor is it representative of modern politics is all im saying. The days when two parties can cater to all views i think are long gone , as the events of the last decade show .
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Post by Bentley on Oct 23, 2022 15:27:03 GMT
That’s only if fptp was the cause of the problem . I think that’s debatable. ok . What your take on the uk political problems and thier roots , and how does fptp alleviate those problems? Imo Europe has two futures. 1 We become a low tax , Low wage economy and become a new third world subject to Chinese hegemony . 2 We become a low productivity, broke society much like the end days of the USSR and it’s satellites. As far as the UK is concerned, after Truss was booted out it looks like the future is number 2. We are a medium poor country trying to stay rich on an overdraft and maxed out credit . What we need is a period of authoritarian rule that focuses our minds in real issues rather than whether men with penises can put a dress on and force us to call him a woman and/ or whether white people are the cause of everything that ever was bad in history.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2022 17:58:20 GMT
I don’t think a working class base ,no nonsense,” soak the rich and renationalise utilities “ Labour Party would ever gain traction today. The Labour Party is all about identity politics and very little else imo. So the only place to go is a form of ‘ Blairism ‘. We will never get back to a pre Blair Labour Party . well i disagree . for politics to work and reflect the electorate , it needs a modern voting system and not the two party fptp stitch up. You also need diverse parties reflecting the different shades of politics , not two parties offering the same shite with a fag papers width in difference of policy.
you highlight an important point though in terms of new labour. The fact is new labour no longer represent the old working class of scotland and england hence their decline in popualrity , and why they need the anti democratic help of the two party fptp stitich up to fall into power rather than popualr support of the voting public.
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnt result is the sign of madness as they say. I reject blairsim utterly , and may i point out it was the blairites who lost scotland , not corbyn , and the blairites who sowed the seeds of labours destruction in the red wall.
This is one of those relatively infrequent moments when I agree with every word uttered by someone. Well said, Thomas.
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Post by Vinny on Oct 23, 2022 21:43:04 GMT
We should consider PR, and hold a referendum on it. It would make other parties more relevant and provide more choice. Had PR been our voting system in 2015, UKIP would have gained 83 seats, whereas the SNP's 50 seats would instead have been 25. The Conservatives would have won 75 fewer seats but would still have been the largest party. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32601281
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