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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 15, 2022 10:59:16 GMT
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/objections-to-trans-patients-on-womens-hospital-wards-like-racism-vz309qqtqAs some on here enjoy playing the same card against certain news sources running with this story I thought I’d use The Times’s take on it. You can quite easily find a Scottish Daily Express article but again some of the more left leaning on here might object on the grounds only the Guardian is allowed to raise such a story. However, a consultancy firm, whose role and rationale for receiving the information is concealed by the Times’ paywall notice, while conducting paid research of some kind, found themselves in possession of a report produced by Ayrshire and Arran NHS which if adopted will require biological women objecting to biological men on a single sex ward to be classified as racists, removed from the ward and presumably denied treatment. The report considers an actual case where a biological woman patient on a ward defined as single sex was less than impressed to find a biological man who self identified as female brought into the ward. Her objections were overruled and the said trust, which has received awards for its pro-lgbt stance, requires, according to this report, that all staff should respond to such bigotry with the statement that ‘this is indeed a single sex ward and there are no men here’ Jesus Fucking Christ on a bike who the fuck trained the consultant doctors who allow this level of perversion. Pronouns have no place in a hospital ward. And I say this as one acclaimed for my 1979 letter to the South Wales Argus criticising the criticism of a senior university Faculty of Medicine staff member outed as a weekend transvestite. I said then the man in question, who I had never seen at work in anything other than a business suit or unisex medical surgical wear should be acclaimed for causing medical students to consider how they would react to the ‘lady’ in the tweed skirt in cubicle three brought in by ambulance being equipped with male genitalia and if this were the case and they couldn’t handle it then maybe this wasn’t the profession for them as by god we get all sorts in A&E, but equally I say now because I never in a millennia thought it would ever need to be said that while I expect that level of tolerance from any staff in the building, I bloody well don’t expect that level of enforcement to apply to the patients.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 15, 2022 11:29:51 GMT
This is not just a Scottish problem - the same policy is enacted in England where it was used by the Hospital to cover up a rape on the ward.
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Post by Steve on Dec 15, 2022 11:36:18 GMT
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/objections-to-trans-patients-on-womens-hospital-wards-like-racism-vz309qqtq . . . However, a consultancy firm, whose role and rationale for receiving the information is concealed by the Times’ paywall notice, while conducting paid research of some kind, found themselves in possession of a report produced by Ayrshire and Arran NHS which if adopted will require biological women objecting to biological men on a single sex ward to be classified as racists, removed from the ward and presumably denied treatment. . . . That's not what the Times article you reference says. I quote: 'Patients who raise concerns about trans women being put on female-only hospital wards are comparable with racists and may have to be “removed”, NHS guidance suggests.
The policy in NHS Ayrshire & Arran, called Supporting Trans Service Users, puts forward a scenario where a woman patient “explains she didn’t expect to be sharing the ward with a man and points to the bed opposite”.
Nurses are told to “reiterate” to any patient who complains “that the ward is indeed female only and that there are no men present”. It adds: “Ultimately it may be the complainant who is required to be removed.” |
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Post by ginnyg on Dec 15, 2022 12:04:21 GMT
R.I.P. common sense. And also any right of an individual to actually hold an opinion.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 15, 2022 12:15:58 GMT
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/objections-to-trans-patients-on-womens-hospital-wards-like-racism-vz309qqtq . . . However, a consultancy firm, whose role and rationale for receiving the information is concealed by the Times’ paywall notice, while conducting paid research of some kind, found themselves in possession of a report produced by Ayrshire and Arran NHS which if adopted will require biological women objecting to biological men on a single sex ward to be classified as racists, removed from the ward and presumably denied treatment. . . . That's not what the Times article you reference says. I quote: 'Patients who raise concerns about trans women being put on female-only hospital wards are comparable with racists and may have to be “removed”, NHS guidance suggests.
The policy in NHS Ayrshire & Arran, called Supporting Trans Service Users, puts forward a scenario where a woman patient “explains she didn’t expect to be sharing the ward with a man and points to the bed opposite”.
Nurses are told to “reiterate” to any patient who complains “that the ward is indeed female only and that there are no men present”. It adds: “Ultimately it may be the complainant who is required to be removed.”And you are happy with that line being taken ? That a women recovering from illness or surgery in a ward environment where single sex wards are guaranteed has to tolerate something that clearly isn’t because pronouns trump penises. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 15, 2022 12:27:59 GMT
There is no happy position with this base issue. It's very hard to find a net least harm position. It might be wonderful if in this world everyone was either clearly male or female and straight and in equal numbers in each relevant geographical area but unfortunately reality isn't like that.
But one thing I do know is people posting exaggerated stories on internet forums is no route to a net least harm position. And I note you haven't corrected your OP that very much did so.
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Post by Bentley on Dec 15, 2022 13:24:12 GMT
Facts should overcome feelings . If you have a penis then you are a man. You may not feel like one but you are.
Being a man should exclude you from female only areas.
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Post by Steve on Dec 15, 2022 13:31:03 GMT
Facts should overcome feelings . If you have a penis then you are a man. You may not feel like one but you are. Being a man should exclude you from female only areas. Can I suggest instead: 'having a penis should exclude you from female only areas' would be the least net harm position. God knows where we go on having gay men in male only areas |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 15, 2022 13:35:43 GMT
There is no happy position with this base issue. It's very hard to find a net least harm position. It might be wonderful if in this world everyone was either clearly male or female and straight and in equal numbers in each relevant geographical area but unfortunately reality isn't like that. But one thing I do know is people posting exaggerated stories on internet forums is no route to a net least harm position. And I note you haven't corrected your OP that very much did so. I disagree with your view of it being difficult to achieve a least harm position. It seems to me a quite simple solution is to remove the ‘trans’ person to a separate area, side room, whatever. I’m with JK Rowling here. The real fears of genuine biological women are being railroaded by utterly ridiculous political grandstanding. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 15, 2022 13:42:19 GMT
Maybe I should have said 'a widely accepted least net harm position'
As already posted if someone has a penis then I believe they should be excluded from recognised female only areas (public loos, changing rooms, female wards etc)
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 15, 2022 13:43:09 GMT
Facts should overcome feelings . If you have a penis then you are a man. You may not feel like one but you are. Being a man should exclude you from female only areas. Can I suggest instead: 'having a penis should exclude you from female only areas' would be the least net harm position. God knows where we go on having gay men in male only areas Well yes it do s open a can of worms doesn’t it. I suppose it comes down to who feels at risk, or vulnerable, and to what. The bit I feel most angry about is the attitude of the weirdo-friendly writers of the document who think it is right to make the person feeling vulnerable the wrong doer. We already have a movement within the NHS hell bent on denying treatment to people for making ‘the wrong lifestyle choices’ now it seems we are enabling withdrawal of medical treatment to persons unhappy with being in mixed sex wards. I was dumped in one such ward after emergency surgery and I felt quite awkward about it. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 15, 2022 13:58:47 GMT
Facts should overcome feelings . If you have a penis then you are a man. You may not feel like one but you are. Being a man should exclude you from female only areas. Can I suggest instead: 'having a penis should exclude you from female only areas' would be the least net harm position. God knows where we go on having gay men in male only areas You can suggest but I’m not buying it . Can you explain why you think that having gay men in men only areas would be either a problem or an equivalent? |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 15, 2022 17:34:21 GMT
Facts should overcome feelings . If you have a penis then you are a man. You may not feel like one but you are. Being a man should exclude you from female only areas. It does seem odd that in a hospital of all places feelings are placed ahead of biology..  |
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Post by Steve on Dec 15, 2022 21:36:21 GMT
Can I suggest instead: 'having a penis should exclude you from female only areas' would be the least net harm position. God knows where we go on having gay men in male only areas You can suggest but I’m not buying it . Can you explain why you think that having gay men in men only areas would be either a problem or an equivalent? Google male rape |
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Post by jaydee on Dec 16, 2022 10:18:33 GMT
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/objections-to-trans-patients-on-womens-hospital-wards-like-racism-vz309qqtqAs some on here enjoy playing the same card against certain news sources running with this story I thought I’d use The Times’s take on it. You can quite easily find a Scottish Daily Express article but again some of the more left leaning on here might object on the grounds only the Guardian is allowed to raise such a story. However, a consultancy firm, whose role and rationale for receiving the information is concealed by the Times’ paywall notice, while conducting paid research of some kind, found themselves in possession of a report produced by Ayrshire and Arran NHS which if adopted will require biological women objecting to biological men on a single sex ward to be classified as racists, removed from the ward and presumably denied treatment. The report considers an actual case where a biological woman patient on a ward defined as single sex was less than impressed to find a biological man who self identified as female brought into the ward. Her objections were overruled and the said trust, which has received awards for its pro-lgbt stance, requires, according to this report, that all staff should respond to such bigotry with the statement that ‘this is indeed a single sex ward and there are no men here’ Jesus Fucking Christ on a bike who the fuck trained the consultant doctors who allow this level of perversion. Pronouns have no place in a hospital ward. And I say this as one acclaimed for my 1979 letter to the South Wales Argus criticising the criticism of a senior university Faculty of Medicine staff member outed as a weekend transvestite. I said then the man in question, who I had never seen at work in anything other than a business suit or unisex medical surgical wear should be acclaimed for causing medical students to consider how they would react to the ‘lady’ in the tweed skirt in cubicle three brought in by ambulance being equipped with male genitalia and if this were the case and they couldn’t handle it then maybe this wasn’t the profession for them as by god we get all sorts in A&E, but equally I say now because I never in a millennia thought it would ever need to be said that while I expect that level of tolerance from any staff in the building, I bloody well don’t expect that level of enforcement to apply to the patients. And, I hold the view if you are born with a cock you are a man. If you are born with a fanny you are a Tory supporter. Well a female. I can also understand there are men in woman's body and vice versa. So what ward do you put them in. But all this shit is Victorian. Go to the likes of France. There are open urinals with woman walking past. Who do not even blink a eye. I do not have one scoobie how to sort it out. Or pretend. It all seems opinions to me. Out with hospital wards. All woman I have spoken to object if a male classified as a female, came into a toilet. Would walk out. As you say in a hospital. The treatment comes first. I would have thought that goes without saying. What would you do. The best I can come up with. If I was born a toilet seat. With my luck I would be put in the gents. It is all way over my head. |
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