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Post by Totheleft on Jul 9, 2024 18:21:21 GMT
polling organisations, of those Conservatives who switched to vote for Reform, which was a lot of them, only 13 per cent of those people said it was because the Conservatives were too left wing. 73 per cent said it was because they thought the Conservatives were not competent.
It seems only a small %thought the torys
Were to left wing.
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Post by Dogburger on Jul 9, 2024 18:25:28 GMT
Maybe the same reason some Labour voters switched to Reform . They see labour going too far left
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 9, 2024 18:35:27 GMT
Quite a few Tory votes went LibDem too, so not convinced it was about positioning of the party. Agree about competence, and would add broken promises to that.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2024 18:39:06 GMT
polling organisations, of those Conservatives who switched to vote for Reform, which was a lot of them, only 13 per cent of those people said it was because the Conservatives were too left wing. 73 per cent said it was because they thought the Conservatives were not competent. It seems only a small %thought the torys Were to left wing. Because Reform are more Conservative.
Think about it.
If you're a Conservative, you vote for actual Conservatives.
But, it split the vote.
Labour's vote actually went down.
The Greens who are more left wing than Labour, split Labour's vote, but to a much lesser extent.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2024 18:41:18 GMT
Quite a few Tory votes went LibDem too, so not convinced it was about positioning of the party. Agree about competence, and would add broken promises to that. Well yeah, traditionally a lot of Tories have been pro EU federalists. Edward Heath, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Heseltine, John Major, Anna Soubry spring to mind.
I wouldn't be against federalism myself if it had been done democratically, giving everyone a vote on policy direction first instead of just imposing it by Commission.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 9, 2024 18:56:55 GMT
Quite a few Tory votes went LibDem too, so not convinced it was about positioning of the party. Agree about competence, and would add broken promises to that. Well yeah, traditionally a lot of Tories have been pro EU federalists. Edward Heath, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Heseltine, John Major, Anna Soubry spring to mind.
I wouldn't be against federalism myself if it had been done democratically, giving everyone a vote on policy direction first instead of just imposing it by Commission.
Well Europe was certainly a dividing factor, but has always been thus for the Tory Party. But there are other factors too, mainly to do with competence. So in the same way voters didn't want Corbyn in 2019, they didn't want the Tories in 2024. So, alongside Brexit, I'd add PPE contracts, proroguing Parliament to avoid scrutiny, Boris refusing to appear before the scrutiny committee, Partygate, cash for lobbying, appointing a sex pest as chief whip then lying about it, Liz Truss's 49 days in charge, the failure of levelling up, the changing position on HS2, the failure of 4 of 5 of Rishi's pledges (which he asked to be judged on). I'll await the outcome of the Covid enquiry before I pass judgement there. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2024 19:47:09 GMT
The EU isn't Europe, it's a political project which costs too much to be in, controls who you can and cannot have tariff free trade with and goes about making laws without being directed to do so by the public. If the public had voted and controled policy direction, well, as I'm a democrat I'd have gone along with that. The thing needs reform, we were promised reform, and there was no attempt to democratically involve the public in a process of deciding what reforms to enact, and there was no treaty change available for us to vote on. Both official campaigns lied in the referendum campaign. But we voted out, we've left, and it hasn't been a disaster, it's been a success. thecritic.co.uk/uk-manufacturing-is-significantly-outperforming-as-a-result-of-brexit/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68500499www.ons.gov.uk/releases/impactofbluebook2023changesongrossdomesticproduct  The real reasons the Tories are in such a woeful state, they've done this to themselves, by mismanaging Covid, partying whilst the nation was locked down, not taking full advantage of Brexit (we should have liberalised more and scrapped tariffs on things we don't make or grow). And they cocked up on illegal immigration too. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 9, 2024 20:20:46 GMT
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2024 21:03:38 GMT
I was just pointing out where they've failed and where they could have done better and where they've failed to trumpet successes.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 9, 2024 21:17:02 GMT
Well yeah, traditionally a lot of Tories have been pro EU federalists. Edward Heath, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Heseltine, John Major, Anna Soubry spring to mind. I wouldn't be against federalism myself if it had been done democratically, giving everyone a vote on policy direction first instead of just imposing it by Commission.
Well Europe was certainly a dividing factor, but has always been thus for the Tory Party. I beg your pardon? - only one major party has ever advocated leaving the EU (I'll give you a clue, it was not the Tories)  |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 9, 2024 22:03:37 GMT
Well Europe was certainly a dividing factor, but has always been thus for the Tory Party. I beg your pardon? - only one major party has ever advocated leaving the EU (I'll give you a clue, it was not the Tories) Think you've misread what I wrote - I said Europe was always an issue for the Tory Party. That's correct. Thatcher, Major, Cameron... Europe did for them all. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2024 22:15:43 GMT
The EU is not Europe. And the Maastricht Rebellion was always bigger than the Tory party.
Labour forgot that in their ranks were also people concerned about the direction the EU was going in.
Frank Field, Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner.... Even Tony Benn, when he was alive.
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Post by jeg er on Jul 10, 2024 7:03:05 GMT
Well yeah, traditionally a lot of Tories have been pro EU federalists. Edward Heath, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Heseltine, John Major, Anna Soubry spring to mind.
I wouldn't be against federalism myself if it had been done democratically, giving everyone a vote on policy direction first instead of just imposing it by Commission.
Well Europe was certainly a dividing factor, but has always been thus for the Tory Party. But there are other factors too, mainly to do with competence. So in the same way voters didn't want Corbyn in 2019, they didn't want the Tories in 2024. So, alongside Brexit, I'd add PPE contracts, proroguing Parliament to avoid scrutiny, Boris refusing to appear before the scrutiny committee, Partygate, cash for lobbying, appointing a sex pest as chief whip then lying about it, Liz Truss's 49 days in charge, the failure of levelling up, the changing position on HS2, the failure of 4 of 5 of Rishi's pledges (which he asked to be judged on). I'll await the outcome of the Covid enquiry before I pass judgement there. there is no way that cancelling HS2 could be added to the list of failures by the Tories which lost them the election. most people would have been supportive or ambivalent of that decision, it certainly would not be considered an issue re competence or an electoral issue |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 10, 2024 15:04:41 GMT
Well Europe was certainly a dividing factor, but has always been thus for the Tory Party. But there are other factors too, mainly to do with competence. So in the same way voters didn't want Corbyn in 2019, they didn't want the Tories in 2024. So, alongside Brexit, I'd add PPE contracts, proroguing Parliament to avoid scrutiny, Boris refusing to appear before the scrutiny committee, Partygate, cash for lobbying, appointing a sex pest as chief whip then lying about it, Liz Truss's 49 days in charge, the failure of levelling up, the changing position on HS2, the failure of 4 of 5 of Rishi's pledges (which he asked to be judged on). I'll await the outcome of the Covid enquiry before I pass judgement there. there is no way that cancelling HS2 could be added to the list of failures by the Tories which lost them the election. most people would have been supportive or ambivalent of that decision, it certainly would not be considered an issue re competence or an electoral issue It adds to the list of broken promises. It was part of Boris levelling up agenda, scrapped by Sunak. So while the country was divided on its merits, the change of mind does absolutely bring in the competence. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 11, 2024 9:19:18 GMT
there is no way that cancelling HS2 could be added to the list of failures by the Tories which lost them the election. most people would have been supportive or ambivalent of that decision, it certainly would not be considered an issue re competence or an electoral issue It adds to the list of broken promises. It was part of Boris levelling up agenda, scrapped by Sunak. So while the country was divided on its merits, the change of mind does absolutely bring in the competence. Aside from free movement, why on earth are you so pro EU? The damn thing doesn't work. It's a cause of fish stock depletion with factory trawlers: www.greenpeace.org.au/article/monsters-oceans-7-criminal-super-trawlers-threaten-waters/It imposed privatisation on Greece (aren't you lefties against that sort of thing?). Its agricultural subsidies used to subsidise grouse shoots where people pay £1k a day to kill grouse they then don't eat. www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/28/grouse-shooting-estates-shored-up-by-millions-in-subsidies£10 million quid of our money went to grouse shooting, that could have gone on feeding the homeless instead. It was a continuous source of bad policy.
I'm well aware that we can create bad policies on our own, but we can sack our government when they do it (and we just have).
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