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Post by sandypine on Jun 24, 2024 17:01:30 GMT
Here are some Historical Facts for our Pro-Russian / Pro-Farage contingent -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1991 a referendum was held in Ukraine on the issue of independence, in the Eastern Province of Donetsk, the result was 84% in favour of Ukrainian independence; In the Eastern Province of Luhansk, the result was also 84% in favour of independence. These are the two Ukrainian Provinces where separatists held out with help from Putin until the full scale Russian invasion in 2022. The other two Provinces now claimed by Russia, and which Putin has supposedly annexed, but does not control all of the territory, are Zaphorizhzhia Provine which voted over 90% for Ukrainian independence, and the Province of Kherson which also voted over 90% in favour of Ukrainian independence. THe day after the results of the 1991 referendum were announced, the President of Russia, Mr Boris Yeltsin, officially recognised Ukrainian independence within the then borders of Ukraine. THERE NEVER WAS ANY CLAIM TO UKRAINIAN LAND BY RUSSIA, AND THERE WAS NO SEPARATIST MOVEMENT ANYWHERE IN EASTERN UKRAINE UNTIL IT BECAME CLEAR TO PUTIN THAT UKRAINE WAS LOOKING MORE TO ITS WEST, AND EUROPE FOR ITS FUTURE. There never was any disputed land or territory, and Ukraine at no time ever posed any kind of threat to Russia. THis is entirely about Russia not allowing Ukraine to forge closer ties with Europe, and nothing else, Putin wants to control Ukraine the same as he controls Belarus. It is complicated by the fact that not all the populace wished closer ties with the EU or indeed wished to join. The EU only had about 50% approval. 1991 referendums measured the feelings at that time not the feelings that arose as Kyiv sought ever closer Union to the West. Things becoming clear to Putin also had the habit of becoming clear to the populations in areas that did not wish to be ever closer involved with the West. Areas where separatists were seeking separation were areas in dispute not because of land claims but because with whom the government were seeking Union. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 24, 2024 17:07:18 GMT
Here are some Historical Facts for our Pro-Russian / Pro-Farage contingent Well a historical fact is that to get Russian agreement to peaceful German reunification they were repeatedly assured that NATO would not expand eastwards into the countries of the former Soviet Union. A pledge that was repeated time and again and which has been broken, time and again. And some people wonder how Russia could have been provoked...  |
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Post by Dogburger on Jun 24, 2024 17:45:55 GMT
A few more historical facts
Regardless of Ukraine /Russian relations over the years the point remains that Farage told the EU that seeking their trade and co-operation deal with Ukraine would be an act of lunacy . Putin at that time was trying to form a trade bloc of countries on the Russian borders to counter EU expansion .Having Ukraine in it would have been the jewel in the crown .
Indeed the elected Ukraine president decided not to go with the EU but with Putins group . That should have been the end of it but Obama and the EU conspired to eject the president from office and instate a pro western one who then pulled out of the Russian trade deal and looked to the EU . A taste of the western world and with further EU encouragement Ukraine then elected the current president .
For Putin the Ukraine was lost ,only ethnic Russian Donbas and the Military base in the Crimea remained in any way pro Russian .That didn't or doesn't give Putin the right to make war with Ukraine but as Farage says it gave him a reason to and an excuse to get his own peoples backing .
This was also the view of the Pope in 2022 and Boris Johnson in 2016 , yes that Boris Johnson who has been calling Farage an appeaser all week end .LOL you really couldn't make this shit up
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Post by witchfinder on Jun 24, 2024 18:02:34 GMT
A few more historical facts Regardless of Ukraine /Russian relations over the years the point remains that Farage told the EU that seeking their trade and co-operation deal with Ukraine would be an act of lunacy . Putin at that time was trying to form a trade bloc of countries on the Russian borders to counter EU expansion .Having Ukraine in it would have been the jewel in the crown . Indeed the elected Ukraine president decided not to go with the EU but with Putins group . That should have been the end of it but Obama and the EU conspired to eject the president from office and instate a pro western one who then pulled out of the Russian trade deal and looked to the EU . A taste of the western world and with further EU encouragement Ukraine then elected the current president . For Putin the Ukraine was lost ,only ethnic Russian Donbas and the Military base in the Crimea remained in any way pro Russian .That didn't or doesn't give Putin the right to make war with Ukraine but as Farage says it gave him a reason to and an excuse to get his own peoples backing . This was also the view of the Pope in 2022 and Boris Johnson in 2016 , yes that Boris Johnson who has been calling Farage an appeaser all week end .LOL you really couldn't make this shit up No matter what Farage may believe, he cannot alter the fact that MOST PEOPLE in Ukraine do not want to have close ties with Russia, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated economic bloc, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated military alliance. The argument as put forward by Farage doesn't have a leg to stand on The people of Ukraine endured far too many years where their culture, their language was supressed and dominated by Russia. The Ukrainian people want to be part of Europe, NOT RUSSIA, they have had freedom since the break-up of the Soviet Union, and now they want to take their place amongst the free nations of Europe. You cannot blame the European Union for simply accepting Ukraine's application for candidate status for the EU, not when that is the desire of most Ukrainian people, which it is. Who the hell does either Farage, or Putin think they are ? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jun 24, 2024 18:05:03 GMT
Fuck me, this is hard work. I can't provide that proof, Nulla because I never said you did. And your one "Proof" of your claims about me was a quote of someone else. You are deluded, Nulla. And everytime someone points it out, you imagine a conspiracy of liars. That's paranoia. You are not well, Nulla. Get a grip of it instead of pretending stuff on here. Yeah, don't think I am going to tale mental health advice from a racist, thanks all the same. All The Best Read my signature, Nulla: You lose. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 24, 2024 18:17:55 GMT
A few more historical facts Regardless of Ukraine /Russian relations over the years the point remains that Farage told the EU that seeking their trade and co-operation deal with Ukraine would be an act of lunacy . Putin at that time was trying to form a trade bloc of countries on the Russian borders to counter EU expansion .Having Ukraine in it would have been the jewel in the crown . Indeed the elected Ukraine president decided not to go with the EU but with Putins group . That should have been the end of it but Obama and the EU conspired to eject the president from office and instate a pro western one who then pulled out of the Russian trade deal and looked to the EU . A taste of the western world and with further EU encouragement Ukraine then elected the current president . For Putin the Ukraine was lost ,only ethnic Russian Donbas and the Military base in the Crimea remained in any way pro Russian .That didn't or doesn't give Putin the right to make war with Ukraine but as Farage says it gave him a reason to and an excuse to get his own peoples backing . This was also the view of the Pope in 2022 and Boris Johnson in 2016 , yes that Boris Johnson who has been calling Farage an appeaser all week end .LOL you really couldn't make this shit up No matter what Farage may believe, he cannot alter the fact that MOST PEOPLE in Ukraine do not want to have close ties with Russia, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated economic bloc, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated military alliance. The argument as put forward by Farage doesn't have a leg to stand on The people of Ukraine endured far too many years where their culture, their language was supressed and dominated by Russia. The Ukrainian people want to be part of Europe, NOT RUSSIA, they have had freedom since the break-up of the Soviet Union, and now they want to take their place amongst the free nations of Europe. You cannot blame the European Union for simply accepting Ukraine's application for candidate status for the EU, not when that is the desire of most Ukrainian people, which it is. Who the hell does either Farage, or Putin think they are ? 'Most people' was hovering around the 50% mark back in 2013 I would imagine it is greater than that now. They sought greater Union with the EU, they did not vote either way for any involvement with Russia. The argument put forward by Farage was that if you poke a bear it will retaliate in exactly the same way the US has been poked many times and responded many times by invading independent countries, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan Libya. That does not make Putin right but it makes many people Hypocrites. |
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Post by sheepy on Jun 24, 2024 18:30:37 GMT
Well in that case Einstein England annexed Scotland by the majority voting to be part of UK. LOL You mean Scotland voted to be part of a UK. That's two different countries, the Ukraine was a single country into which Russia interfered with. That fucked you didn't it. Some fast backtracking. |
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Post by sheepy on Jun 24, 2024 18:32:45 GMT
LOL the funny part is, on the whole everybody agree they are complete fantasists and a complete bunch of arseholes and finding someone to vote for is near impossible.
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Post by witchfinder on Jun 24, 2024 20:11:17 GMT
No matter what Farage may believe, he cannot alter the fact that MOST PEOPLE in Ukraine do not want to have close ties with Russia, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated economic bloc, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated military alliance. The argument as put forward by Farage doesn't have a leg to stand on The people of Ukraine endured far too many years where their culture, their language was supressed and dominated by Russia. The Ukrainian people want to be part of Europe, NOT RUSSIA, they have had freedom since the break-up of the Soviet Union, and now they want to take their place amongst the free nations of Europe. You cannot blame the European Union for simply accepting Ukraine's application for candidate status for the EU, not when that is the desire of most Ukrainian people, which it is. Who the hell does either Farage, or Putin think they are ? 'Most people' was hovering around the 50% mark back in 2013 I would imagine it is greater than that now. They sought greater Union with the EU, they did not vote either way for any involvement with Russia. The argument put forward by Farage was that if you poke a bear it will retaliate in exactly the same way the US has been poked many times and responded many times by invading independent countries, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan Libya. That does not make Putin right but it makes many people Hypocrites. Russia can only blame itself for Ukraine applying for NATO membership The Russian interference and violation of Ukraines sovereignty CAME FIRST, not Ukraines application to join NATO Vladimir Putin sent both men and military hardware into two Ukrainian provinces to support the terrorist separatists, and when Ukraine reacted by asking for NATO membership, Putin threw a tantrum. If Russia had of stayed out of Ukraine, and not supported armed insurrection inside Ukraine, then Ukraine would probably never have applied for NATO membership. |
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Post by Dogburger on Jun 24, 2024 21:15:44 GMT
A few more historical facts Regardless of Ukraine /Russian relations over the years the point remains that Farage told the EU that seeking their trade and co-operation deal with Ukraine would be an act of lunacy . Putin at that time was trying to form a trade bloc of countries on the Russian borders to counter EU expansion .Having Ukraine in it would have been the jewel in the crown . Indeed the elected Ukraine president decided not to go with the EU but with Putins group . That should have been the end of it but Obama and the EU conspired to eject the president from office and instate a pro western one who then pulled out of the Russian trade deal and looked to the EU . A taste of the western world and with further EU encouragement Ukraine then elected the current president . For Putin the Ukraine was lost ,only ethnic Russian Donbas and the Military base in the Crimea remained in any way pro Russian .That didn't or doesn't give Putin the right to make war with Ukraine but as Farage says it gave him a reason to and an excuse to get his own peoples backing . This was also the view of the Pope in 2022 and Boris Johnson in 2016 , yes that Boris Johnson who has been calling Farage an appeaser all week end .LOL you really couldn't make this shit up No matter what Farage may believe, he cannot alter the fact that MOST PEOPLE in Ukraine do not want to have close ties with Russia, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated economic bloc, they do not want to be part of the Russian dominated military alliance. The argument as put forward by Farage doesn't have a leg to stand on The people of Ukraine endured far too many years where their culture, their language was supressed and dominated by Russia. The Ukrainian people want to be part of Europe, NOT RUSSIA, they have had freedom since the break-up of the Soviet Union, and now they want to take their place amongst the free nations of Europe. You cannot blame the European Union for simply accepting Ukraine's application for candidate status for the EU, not when that is the desire of most Ukrainian people, which it is. Who the hell does either Farage, or Putin think they are ? I dont think Farage has ever said anything about what the People of Ukraine think about having close ties with Russia ,you like many over the last few days are making a fool of yourself with these pathetic attacks on what you think Farage thinks . All he said was that the EU would be mad to sign deals with the Ukraine while they were in poor relations with Russia and in doing so could lead to war . Was he right or was he wrong ? (extra clue , EU signed deal with Ukraine and there is now a war) |
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Post by Dogburger on Jun 24, 2024 21:26:09 GMT
Anyway , Farage is smashing the Voting polls in Kent , its all to play for in a number of seats .Voters have dismissed the Ukraine story with the contempt it deserves .Momentum is building and people on the ground are confident of some good results in the county www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AwLkdPjdPw |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2024 21:46:44 GMT
Here is the precise point in time when Boris said the EU was to blame for war in Ukraine:
I said the campaign would be dirty.
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Post by buccaneer on Jun 25, 2024 2:09:15 GMT
The EU is responsible for diplomacy. And just as it didn't give a fuck about Unionists in Northern Ireland, it didn't give a fuck about the division in Ukraine along religious, ethnic and regional lines.It just thinks of its own hegemony. Don't post idiotic remarks about the EU, when the EU had every right to protect its market borders. Blame the idiots who voted for Brexit when they didn't have a clue just what Brexit entailed. Most countries live with their religious, ethnic and reginal lines. In the Ukrainian situation it was a Ukrainian problem NOT A RUSSIAN PROBLEM. I refer you to my previous post and stand by what I said. The EU only cares for its own hegemony. |
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Post by see2 on Jun 25, 2024 4:47:31 GMT
'Appeared'. However the Guardian would make something 'appear' that way. If you read the article, what conclusion did you reach and how did you reach your conclusion? |
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Post by see2 on Jun 25, 2024 4:53:29 GMT
Don't post idiotic remarks about the EU, when the EU had every right to protect its market borders. Blame the idiots who voted for Brexit when they didn't have a clue just what Brexit entailed. Most countries live with their religious, ethnic and reginal lines. In the Ukrainian situation it was a Ukrainian problem NOT A RUSSIAN PROBLEM. I refer you to my previous post and stand by what I said. The EU only cares for its own hegemony. Well in the face of the honest explanation I gave you, the above ^^^ is just your unprovable opinion. Posting an opinion as a fact is a way of avoiding the debating of the issue. |
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