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Post by Vinny on Mar 25, 2024 9:34:00 GMT
So many wars have occurred, shall we talk about the verses in the Old Testament, the Koran and other books which promote violence, intolerance and bigotry rather than peace, inclusiveness and respect for others?
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Post by Totheleft on Mar 26, 2024 14:58:37 GMT
So many wars have occurred, shall we talk about the verses in the Old Testament, the Koran and other books which promote violence, intolerance and bigotry rather than peace, inclusiveness and respect for others? Compare that to Modern Atheist war far. Should I say any more 1st and 2nd world wars
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Post by Vinny on Mar 26, 2024 15:14:26 GMT
It's not a case of compare that. It's a case of looking at verses which promote killing.
Deuteronomy Chapter 20 verses 1-20 for example:
It's just evil. There's similar shit in a lot of other books including the Koran.
There are no excuses for it.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 26, 2024 15:15:24 GMT
So many wars have occurred, shall we talk about the verses in the Old Testament, the Koran and other books which promote violence, intolerance and bigotry rather than peace, inclusiveness and respect for others? I'm an atheist who thinks that religion is a scourge. However, it has to be noted that the brutal anti-religious regimes of Stalin, Pol Pot, Tito, and Mao Zedong also resulted in suffering and mass murder. Where does Wisdom lie?
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Post by Vinny on Mar 26, 2024 15:19:10 GMT
So many wars have occurred, shall we talk about the verses in the Old Testament, the Koran and other books which promote violence, intolerance and bigotry rather than peace, inclusiveness and respect for others? I'm an atheist who thinks that religion is a scourge. However, it has to be noted that the brutal anti-religious regimes of Stalin, Pol Pot, Tito, and Mao Zedong also resulted in suffering and mass murder. Where does Wisdom lie? They too committed crimes but it doesn't excuse religion.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 26, 2024 15:30:29 GMT
I'm an atheist who thinks that religion is a scourge. However, it has to be noted that the brutal anti-religious regimes of Stalin, Pol Pot, Tito, and Mao Zedong also resulted in suffering and mass murder. Where does Wisdom lie? They too committed crimes but it doesn't excuse religion. Indeed it doesn't, but it's an argument you will get from the religious community, ie that violence is committed both by adherents to religion and atheism alike. I think that there are other, better arguments against religion. In my view the focus of many if not most religions today is wealth-building rather than philanthropy. Look at the staggering wealth of the Catholic and Mormon churches, for instance, yet they are still asking members for money. Look at how the religious right is inserting itself into government and tearing down the rights of women in America. If they have their way, it will be like Margaret Atwood's Gilead, where women are treated as breeding factories and nothing more.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 26, 2024 15:34:58 GMT
That's like saying but but but Fred West if you're discussing the crimes of Harold Shipman. One crime doesn't excuse another.
But in order to understand for example, the crimes of Netanyahu / the IDF, you have to understand what they believe in. In order to understand the crimes of Hamas you have to understand what they believe in.
Both believe that God wants them to fight and kill. To tell them that's bollocks, and "that's blasphemy".
That's what this thread's about I guess.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 26, 2024 15:57:38 GMT
That's like saying but but but Fred West if you're discussing the crimes of Harold Shipman. One crime doesn't excuse another. But in order to understand for example, the crimes of Netanyahu / the IDF, you have to understand what they believe in. In order to understand the crimes of Hamas you have to understand what they believe in. Both believe that God wants them to fight and kill. To tell them that's bollocks, and "that's blasphemy". That's what this thread's about I guess. Certainly, Netanyahu has been known to quote the Torah to justify his actions, but in politics, religion is a useful and expedient tool with which to manipulate the people and take power.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 26, 2024 16:10:52 GMT
The settlers are very very religious.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 26, 2024 16:15:13 GMT
The settlers are very very religious. I actually know one of them who would argue against apartheid but couldn't see any parallel in Israel. Even remarkably intelligent people can be brainwashed.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Mar 26, 2024 16:39:30 GMT
I'm not sure that the issues with religion are actually about religion.
Membership of a religion often denotes membership of a group, and it's part & parcel of that group identity. And it's the identity that's the issue, not the religion.
Look at Israel and Gaza. Strip out the religion and you've still got two groups that hate each other. Their respective religions simply make it easier to tell them apart. And sure, I expect religion is used as an excuse by both sides to hate the other but it's not the real reason for the conflict.
I'm currently watching the excellent Netflix mini-series “Gunpowder” about the Gunpowder Plot and I can't help thinking about the politics of the Catholic/Protestant divide at that time.
Again, that wasn't really a religious divide (the religions being essentially the same). It was a simple power play. The Protestant monarch had a tenuous hold and was afraid that the Catholic group would try to seize power. So religion was used as the excuse for the conflict, but it wasn't the cause.
And essentially the same conflict continued into the 20th Century in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it still rumbles on. And again, it's really got nothing to do with religion.
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Post by Bentley on Mar 26, 2024 17:22:32 GMT
There is very little in the Bible about what Jesus actually said . What is clear imo is that Jesus told us that the rich are practically doomed , your place on Earth is turned upside down in the after life , you must be a pacifist, you must put others before you and you cannot be politically active ( imo). No religious establishment can survive that . So early Christianity was an apocalyptically Jewish cult , tweaked by Paul to include non Jews and hijacked by Constantine to become the exact opposite of the founder wanted.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 26, 2024 18:13:36 GMT
I'm not sure that the issues with religion are actually about religion. Membership of a religion often denotes membership of a group, and it's part & parcel of that group identity. And it's the identity that's the issue, not the religion. Look at Israel and Gaza. Strip out the religion and you've still got two groups that hate each other. Their respective religions simply make it easier to tell them apart. And sure, I expect religion is used as an excuse by both sides to hate the other but it's not the real reason for the conflict. I'm currently watching the excellent Netflix mini-series “Gunpowder” about the Gunpowder Plot and I can't help thinking about the politics of the Catholic/Protestant divide at that time. Again, that wasn't really a religious divide (the religions being essentially the same). It was a simple power play. The Protestant monarch had a tenuous hold and was afraid that the Catholic group would try to seize power. So religion was used as the excuse for the conflict, but it wasn't the cause. And essentially the same conflict continued into the 20th Century in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it still rumbles on. And again, it's really got nothing to do with religion. Ok what's Al Qaeda all about?
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Mar 26, 2024 18:26:34 GMT
I'm not sure that the issues with religion are actually about religion. Membership of a religion often denotes membership of a group, and it's part & parcel of that group identity. And it's the identity that's the issue, not the religion. Look at Israel and Gaza. Strip out the religion and you've still got two groups that hate each other. Their respective religions simply make it easier to tell them apart. And sure, I expect religion is used as an excuse by both sides to hate the other but it's not the real reason for the conflict. I'm currently watching the excellent Netflix mini-series “Gunpowder” about the Gunpowder Plot and I can't help thinking about the politics of the Catholic/Protestant divide at that time. Again, that wasn't really a religious divide (the religions being essentially the same). It was a simple power play. The Protestant monarch had a tenuous hold and was afraid that the Catholic group would try to seize power. So religion was used as the excuse for the conflict, but it wasn't the cause. And essentially the same conflict continued into the 20th Century in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it still rumbles on. And again, it's really got nothing to do with religion. Ok what's Al Qaeda all about? Power. The same as the rest of them.
As Seneca said: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by rulers as useful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2024 18:58:09 GMT
Ok what's Al Qaeda all about? Power. The same as the rest of them.
As Seneca said: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by rulers as useful.
Which obviously also applies to anti-religion as seen in the former USSR, China and elsewhere where tyrants become jealous of God/s.
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