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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 17, 2022 22:25:01 GMT
The common wisdom is that as a result of expelling the Jews and suppressing artistic and cultural forms that were inimical to National Socialist ideology the Third Reich turned itself into a stagnant backwater in the cultural sense, and Germans were deprived of cultural enrichment until the Nazis were turned out and pluralism returned.
But is it true?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 10:35:54 GMT
No takers, eh. So let's open the discussion out a bit... There is little question that the acceptable limits of German culture were severely bounded once the Nazis assumed power in 1933, and the Weimar-era anything-goes approach came to an abrupt end. That said, cultural life in the Third Reich was surprisingly rich and, in comparison to that which went before and came later, standards were elevated. In a few well-defined areas, the cultural accomplishments in the Third Reich met or surpassed international standards of excellence for the period in question; industrial design, fashion, the cinema, graphic design and architecture come to mind. What German culture did not have under the Nazi regime was the dispriting and demeaning influence of the degenerate ‘modernists’ and their fellow travellers. Perhaps our contemporary culture (and society) might be better off with a dose of the same medicine to rid us of the likes of Stormzy, Malorie Blackman and the Chapman Brothers? Let's start off with music then. It's not widely known that in parallel with the campaign against what it termed Enartete Kunst (Degenerate Art) a similar campaign against ‘Degenerate Music’ got underway in Düsseldorf in March 1938, albeit without the official support of Goebbels’ PropMin.  |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 18, 2022 11:10:59 GMT
There was the Bauhaus movement in design around that sort of time. I suppose it was a refreshing change from the over-decorated design that went before.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 11:22:51 GMT
The Bauhaus itself didn't survive in Germany after 1933, although their modernist influence can be seen in much Third Reich architecture and civil engineering.
I was planning to 'do' architecture later if the thread develops a following. It's a rather specialised topic that doesn't lend itself to one-liners so it might not.
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Post by piglet on Nov 18, 2022 13:20:17 GMT
The nazis did create art, excellent art, but not in the normal sense. Duxford is nearby, and i went to an airshow there a couple of years ago. There was a focke wulf fighter, green with a nazi yellow emblem just below the cockpit. Then there is the SS uniforms, instantly recognisable, the ordinary uniforms, the SS symbol, i know it has genocidal connotations, and the markings on tanks etc, Hitlers method of speaking, his arm movements.
Camoflage on planes and tanks, uniforms, buildings, the swastika, black on red. I could go on. If you can ignore the connotations of such things, the art is outstanding. The Focke wolf, i think it had a wolfs head, was scary, the embodiment of evil.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 13:24:10 GMT
. What German culture did not have under the Nazi regime was the dispriting and demeaning influence of the degenerate ‘modernists’ and their fellow travellers. Was punk rock degenerate? I recall your quoting 'Belsen was a Gas' by the Sex Pistols on the old forum. You also said you were a fan of Joy Division, a group that started as a punk band. Curtis' lyrics were every bit as nihilistic as anything produced by the Expressionists. 'Atrocity Exhibition', the first track on Closer, is the audio equivalent of many of Otto Dix's works. Do you think Hitler would have approved of the Sex Pistols or Joy Division? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 13:41:05 GMT
I'd say it's doubtful.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 13:43:15 GMT
I'd say it's an absolute certainty that the art that has probably given you most enjoyment in your life wouldn't have been allowed under Hitler's regime. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 13:54:28 GMT
Actually, at the 1938 Party Conference Hitler was scathingly critical of the Party zealots who denigrated my second-most* favourite musical piece on the grounds it dealt with Masonic ideas and its librettist was a baptised Jew.
"Only a man lacking in national respect would condemn Mozart's Magic Flute because it may sometimes come into conflict with his own ideas" [Grunberger 513]
* The Marriage of Figaro would be first.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 14:00:15 GMT
Actually, at the 1938 Party Conference Hitler was scathingly critical of the Party zealots who denigrated my second-most* favourite musical piece on the grounds it dealt with Masonic ideas and its librettist was a baptised Jew. "Only a man lacking in national respect would condemn Mozart's Magic Flute because it may sometimes come into conflict with his own ideas" [Grunberger 513] * The Marriage of Figaro would be first. That's nice, but the following line from your OP suggests that you agree with the Nazi view: 'What German culture did not have under the Nazi regime was the dispriting and demeaning influence of the degenerate ‘modernists’ and their fellow travellers.' So, you accept that Joy Division were 'dispiriting and demeaning'. I don't think you'll find many people who hold the view that their music wasn't 'dispiriting'. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 14:04:13 GMT
That's why I said it's doubtful they would have been approved. Any syncopated music was routinely dismissed as Negermusik and forbidden for public performance. There was lots of other stuff to listen to though.
I'm surprised you haven't picked on my remarks about how a little of the same medicine wouldn't go amiss here and now. Surely you don't agree?
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 14:08:25 GMT
That's why I said it's doubtful they would have been approved. Any syncopated music was routinely dismissed as Negermusik and forbidden for public performance. There was lots of other stuff to listen to though.
I'm surprised you haven't picked on my remarks about how a little of the same medicine wouldn't go amiss here and now. Surely you don't agree?
What struck me about your OP was that you seemed to agree with the Nazi position. I've quoted where you gave that impression. Can you tell us whether you are opposed to 'dispiriting and demeaning' art? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 14:12:47 GMT
In general, I'd say the answer is yes. But I hope this discussion is not going to be confined to a microscopic analysis of my own particular likes and dislikes - that's not really the point of it.
Anyway, good medicine for the here and now, or not?
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 14:16:03 GMT
In general, I'd say the answer is yes. But I hope this discussion is not going to be confined to a microscopic analysis of my own particular likes and dislikes - that's not really the point of it. Anyway, good medicine for the here and now, or not? What's your favourite group? I thought you said it was Joy Division and New Order (Joy Division renamed after its lead singer's death). It's peculiar that you appear to hold the position that 'dispiriting and demeaning' art should be excluded when it is that very form of art that has probably given you most enjoyment. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 14:18:38 GMT
I'm not really into groups these days. Anyway, no more Twenty Questions, let's get on with the show.
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