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Post by dappy on Jan 31, 2024 11:08:26 GMT
I am no expert, and I am not an economist, but when you look around and see the state of Britains public services, you do have to wonder why on earth are the Conservatives considering using any spare change on tax cuts. ? As seems likely, we will have a Labour government this time next year, and I think priority Number 1 has got to be the NHS, and though it will require investment, I think it will also need change, different ways of doing things, and reform. The biggest problem is the Pinch-Point of A&E departments, which is causing long delays for both patients and in ambulance response times. The second huge problem is social care and bed blocking, and part of the problem is there's no joined up system. If the Conservatives have actually had a plan to grow the economy, it hasn't worked, and if they have got a plan, then that is not working either, and they have had 14 years. We must have strong growth to be able to afford to fix our public services, and there has to be a plan. I think you will find the answer to that is two fold - one internal party management to attempt to get through to the election sort of in one piece and two betting on the electorate being so stupid that they don't notice that tax cuts in an election year are simply an empty election bribe. Pretty much all of our public services are in desperate state - from social care to NHS (as you say) to prisons to probation to local councils to education etc etc all falling apart. Leaving aside the tedious party posturing, we collectively need to work out how we are going to deal with the problems caused by an ageing population - in particular healthcare and pensions cost. It is rue that some of our public services are inefficient but promising to reform them to extract savings is more fine words but desperately difficult to achieve in practice. We need to address these problems at the same time as the world, including ourselves, needs to incur substantial costs in dealing with the climate crisis . All massive structural issues that our political system is simply not designed to address. So in all likelihood we will continue to bumble along putting sticking plasters over the major structural issues and trying our best to ignore them. We will change party in power - and I think Labour will do better than the shambolic Tories - but I don't expect the new Government to be able to begin to address the long term major issues and so sadly I fear until we face up to the reality that our living standards will need to drop somewhat and we somehow collectively work out the optimum society within the constraints we now face , I fear we will largely continue down the path that will result in quite a severe societal breakdown. Gloomy picture. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 31, 2024 11:24:58 GMT
The biggest problem is the Pinch-Point of A&E departments, which is causing long delays for both patients and in ambulance response times. The second huge problem is social care and bed blocking, and part of the problem is there's no joined up system. I know someone who runs an A and E, and his evidence is that the issues in A and E are not actually caused at the A and E itself, but their inability to transfer patients to a ward, partly as a result of the bed blocking that you refer to. I do wonder if the social care crisis needs to be fixed first, before we can see improvements in the NHS. BJ claimed he had a ready made solution for SC, but it was delayed and delayed, so my guess is that it didn't exist. I agree with the rest of your post. |
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 1, 2024 2:56:20 GMT
What I find depressing is the complete lack of honesty from all sides. Look at the OP, no mention of the dire situation the Tories inherited, no mention that EU policy forced its members to adopt austerity, no mention of covid / Ukraine. All this Liz Truss stuff is tiresome too... she fucked up by not following procedure and caused a run on the market that briefly affected mortgage rates... the high rates now are nothing to do with her... they are caused by the Bank of England trying to deal with inflation. Inflation which was caused by the Covid lockdowns most of us wanted!!
If the start point is lying about the problem, how are Labour going to fix it???
Labour are going to inherit a dire situation, but remember, most of it was caused by the Covid lockdowns they supported!!!
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 1, 2024 3:12:34 GMT
If the Conservatives have actually had a plan to grow the economy, it hasn't worked, and if they have got a plan, then that is not working either, and they have had 14 years. We must have strong growth to be able to afford to fix our public services, and there has to be a plan. How exactly do you grow when you have EU mandated austerity, and when you finally come out of that Covid hits, and then war starts in Ukraine? We have one of the lowest tax burdens in Western Europe... that is why our public services are failing. The Tories say everything is fine and hope nobody will notice, and Labour pretend they can fund services without raising taxes. The simple truth is we want Nordic levels of public service, but with US levels of taxation. We need to find some honest politicians from somewhere who put us straight about our expectations. Personally, I would a shake up of the tax system. Get rid of NI and go with something like the German system where they have separate taxes for Health Insurance / Pension Insurance / Unemployment Insurance, Long-Term Care Insurance. |
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Post by witchfinder on Feb 1, 2024 11:33:08 GMT
Yes, we have to allow for outside influences beyond our control, the pandemic could not be blamed on the government, just as the worldwide recession in 2008 / 2009 could not be blamed on the government. But if you take for example the NHS, the service was rapidly going down hill before the pandemic.
Public services were all going downhill prior to the pandemic, our growth was sluggish and poor before the pandemic, and before the war in Ukraine.
As for Tax & Spend, if you have a bold plan for growth, and if it works, the money pot will fill, and so on the one hand we have a government of 14 years with nothing to show. On the other hand we have an opposition leader who has got a bold plan, but he's too frightened to put it on the table for fear of it been pulled apart by critics.
The £28 Billion Green Investment Plan is bold, it is borrowing to invest in industry, technology, making the UK more energy self sufficient, it will create jobs, boost growth and make this country a green energy superpower. The plan is backed by many business leaders, but Starmer is frightened of the Conservative press who will tear it apart.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 1, 2024 11:45:57 GMT
As for Tax & Spend, if you have a bold plan for growth, and if it works, the money pot will fill, and so on the one hand we have a government of 14 years with nothing to show. On the other hand we have an opposition leader who has got a bold plan, but he's too frightened to put it on the table for fear of it been pulled apart by critics. Ah! - the £28 Billion dollar question...  meanwhile back in the real world we have just spent £66 Billion on a railway where half the route has ended up with a service that is worse than what it had before.. Green energy superpower my arse... |
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 2, 2024 2:54:45 GMT
Yes, we have to allow for outside influences beyond our control, the pandemic could not be blamed on the government, just as the worldwide recession in 2008 / 2009 could not be blamed on the government. But if you take for example the NHS, the service was rapidly going down hill before the pandemic. Public services were all going downhill prior to the pandemic, our growth was sluggish and poor before the pandemic, and before the war in Ukraine. As for Tax & Spend, if you have a bold plan for growth, and if it works, the money pot will fill, and so on the one hand we have a government of 14 years with nothing to show. On the other hand we have an opposition leader who has got a bold plan, but he's too frightened to put it on the table for fear of it been pulled apart by critics. The £28 Billion Green Investment Plan is bold, it is borrowing to invest in industry, technology, making the UK more energy self sufficient, it will create jobs, boost growth and make this country a green energy superpower. The plan is backed by many business leaders, but Starmer is frightened of the Conservative press who will tear it apart. Actually I think he is frightened of the markets after what happened to Truss, hence they have all but abandoned it. Seriously though, do you not think the Tories wanted growth? If Labour's solution is so obvious, why haven't the Tories tried it? We had growth under Blair, but let's face it, it wasn't real growth. It was based on a massive surge in retail spending, which was funded by an explosion in consumer debt lol. Like I keep saying, we cannot have Nordic levels of public service whilst paying US levels of tax. If Starmer is so grown up, why can't he tell this simple truth? Not that he can now anyway, because the fucking idiot has spent the last year reinforcing the idea that we have high taxes lol. |
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Post by dappy on Feb 2, 2024 10:33:22 GMT
Yes, we have to allow for outside influences beyond our control, the pandemic could not be blamed on the government, just as the worldwide recession in 2008 / 2009 could not be blamed on the government. But if you take for example the NHS, the service was rapidly going down hill before the pandemic. Public services were all going downhill prior to the pandemic, our growth was sluggish and poor before the pandemic, and before the war in Ukraine. As for Tax & Spend, if you have a bold plan for growth, and if it works, the money pot will fill, and so on the one hand we have a government of 14 years with nothing to show. On the other hand we have an opposition leader who has got a bold plan, but he's too frightened to put it on the table for fear of it been pulled apart by critics. The £28 Billion Green Investment Plan is bold, it is borrowing to invest in industry, technology, making the UK more energy self sufficient, it will create jobs, boost growth and make this country a green energy superpower. The plan is backed by many business leaders, but Starmer is frightened of the Conservative press who will tear it apart. Actually I think he is frightened of the markets after what happened to Truss, hence they have all but abandoned it. Seriously though, do you not think the Tories wanted growth? If Labour's solution is so obvious, why haven't the Tories tried it? We had growth under Blair, but let's face it, it wasn't real growth. It was based on a massive surge in retail spending, which was funded by an explosion in consumer debt lol. Like I keep saying, we cannot have Nordic levels of public service whilst paying US levels of tax. If Starmer is so grown up, why can't he tell this simple truth? Not that he can now anyway, because the fucking idiot has spent the last year reinforcing the idea that we have high taxes lol. The answer to your question Dave is that while one of our parties is pretending that you can have Scandinavian services with US tax, it would be electoral suicide for the other party to say you can’t. One of the negatives of democracy - especially the FPTP system which encourages conflict and disincentivises compromise. |
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 2, 2024 13:22:41 GMT
Actually I think he is frightened of the markets after what happened to Truss, hence they have all but abandoned it. Seriously though, do you not think the Tories wanted growth? If Labour's solution is so obvious, why haven't the Tories tried it? We had growth under Blair, but let's face it, it wasn't real growth. It was based on a massive surge in retail spending, which was funded by an explosion in consumer debt lol. Like I keep saying, we cannot have Nordic levels of public service whilst paying US levels of tax. If Starmer is so grown up, why can't he tell this simple truth? Not that he can now anyway, because the fucking idiot has spent the last year reinforcing the idea that we have high taxes lol. The answer to your question Dave is that while one of our parties is pretending that you can have Scandinavian services with US tax, it would be electoral suicide for the other party to say you can’t. One of the negatives of democracy - especially the FPTP system which encourages conflict and disincentivises compromise. I just find it depressing. The Tories are out of it for at least the next two elections, but the idiotic Labour leadership have boxed themselves in by banging on about high taxes, so they cannot achieve the tax reforms we need. I just can't see how they can achieve anything of value. Starmer will achieve nothing, he will be ousted by Rayner, and while I like her strong convictions, she lacks pragmatism and will end up like Truss. Then we are back to square one... |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 2, 2024 13:50:43 GMT
I am no expert, and I am not an economist, but when you look around and see the state of Britains public services, you do have to wonder why on earth are the Conservatives considering using any spare change on tax cuts. ? As seems likely, we will have a Labour government this time next year, and I think priority Number 1 has got to be the NHS, and though it will require investment, I think it will also need change, different ways of doing things, and reform. The biggest problem is the Pinch-Point of A&E departments, which is causing long delays for both patients and in ambulance response times. The second huge problem is social care and bed blocking, and part of the problem is there's no joined up system. If the Conservatives have actually had a plan to grow the economy, it hasn't worked, and if they have got a plan, then that is not working either, and they have had 14 years. We must have strong growth to be able to afford to fix our public services, and there has to be a plan. I needed the A and E department and it took just under 2 hours with about 8-9 people ahead of me. The hospital was clean and tidy and the building almost brand new and expensive. My complaint was the person who got to see me was a nurse and not a doctor, and she was pretty uneducated. She had no idea about my problem, but was competent enough to take an X-ray. She was young and inexperienced. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Feb 2, 2024 14:15:01 GMT
The reason growth was shafted for a decade after the last labour government was because of the depth of the shitty hole brown dug and threw our money into …..
And just as that was starting to be plugged we let tbe fucking chinese poison us with their fucking pox.
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Post by dappy on Feb 2, 2024 16:27:23 GMT
The answer to your question Dave is that while one of our parties is pretending that you can have Scandinavian services with US tax, it would be electoral suicide for the other party to say you can’t. One of the negatives of democracy - especially the FPTP system which encourages conflict and disincentivises compromise. I just find it depressing. The Tories are out of it for at least the next two elections, but the idiotic Labour leadership have boxed themselves in by banging on about high taxes, so they cannot achieve the tax reforms we need. I just can't see how they can achieve anything of value. Starmer will achieve nothing, he will be ousted by Rayner, and while I like her strong convictions, she lacks pragmatism and will end up like Truss. Then we are back to square one... It’s a pretty hopeless system Dave. If you want to be really depressed read “why Westminster works and why it doesn’t” by Ian Dunt. I don’t see Starmer being ousted by Rayner and I do think they will be better than the recent Tories but there is so much to be done and so many obstacles, I think at best they will only be able to scratch the surface. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 2, 2024 17:24:14 GMT
I just find it depressing. The Tories are out of it for at least the next two elections, but the idiotic Labour leadership have boxed themselves in by banging on about high taxes, so they cannot achieve the tax reforms we need. I just can't see how they can achieve anything of value. Starmer will achieve nothing, he will be ousted by Rayner, and while I like her strong convictions, she lacks pragmatism and will end up like Truss. Then we are back to square one... It’s a pretty hopeless system Dave. If you want to be really depressed read “why Westminster works and why it doesn’t” by Ian Dunt. I don’t see Starmer being ousted by Rayner and I do think they will be better than the recent Tories but there is so much to be done and so many obstacles, I think at best they will only be able to scratch the surface. It will be the same people running it. It is all corrupt in this country. You see corruption everywhere. Those at the top are just better at corruption than the rest. |
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 3, 2024 2:40:22 GMT
It’s a pretty hopeless system Dave. If you want to be really depressed read “why Westminster works and why it doesn’t” by Ian Dunt. I don’t see Starmer being ousted by Rayner and I do think they will be better than the recent Tories but there is so much to be done and so many obstacles, I think at best they will only be able to scratch the surface. It will be the same people running it. It is all corrupt in this country. You see corruption everywhere. Those at the top are just better at corruption than the rest. Utter rubbish. The UK is consistently rated as one of the least corrupt countries in the world. 18th out of 180. It was 11th before Bullshitter Boris became PM lol. Your beloved China is 60th. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 3, 2024 12:42:29 GMT
It will be the same people running it. It is all corrupt in this country. You see corruption everywhere. Those at the top are just better at corruption than the rest. Utter rubbish. The UK is consistently rated as one of the least corrupt countries in the world. 18th out of 180. It was 11th before Bullshitter Boris became PM lol. Your beloved China is 60th. When it comes to trade, China is pretty honest, and far more so than UK traders. I've noticed many UK online suppliers don't give you vital details but sell you the product on airy fairy bullshit alone. |
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