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Post by ratcliff on Jan 13, 2024 14:18:43 GMT
is your google broken , You previously stated that you knew nothing about Mandela apart from him being a peaceful protester - now you claim that you were fully aware of his wife's terror activities Make your mind up , to be a good liar you need to remember your lies otherwise you are caught out - just like here Next you claim that I'm stating that I've posted that ''all'' women and children at a protest were nasty and sick, I've made no such blanket statement (some might have been - others not - no idea specifically but protests tend to attract mixed bags)- My post referred solely to Mrs Mandela- was she there? Your attempt at logic is faulty - as usual Dear me, you do have a problem don't you. I NEVER claimed to be aware of his wife's terror activities, just that I know what necklacing is. So that is lie number one. I have seen an incidence on TV news where an individual had a tyre around his neck along with the explanation of the intent of others. You need to have the capacity to know when you post a lie. Regardless of whether it is intentional or not. Lie number two. I never stated that you posted that ''all'' women and children at a protest were nasty and sick". I posted that "You appear to be insinuating" it. You referred to Mrs. Mandela AND HER TEAM. Were you brave enough to watch the video? What video? I've travelled to South Africa many times and seen the ANC evidence and artifacts displayed in Howick - suggest you make a visit before embarrassing yourself even further
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Post by see2 on Jan 13, 2024 14:21:35 GMT
Dear me, you do have a problem don't you. I NEVER claimed to be aware of his wife's terror activities, just that I know what necklacing is. So that is lie number one. I have seen an incidence on TV news where an individual had a tyre around his neck along with the explanation of the intent of others. You need to have the capacity to know when you post a lie. Regardless of whether it is intentional or not. Lie number two. I never stated that you posted that ''all'' women and children at a protest were nasty and sick". I posted that "You appear to be insinuating" it. You referred to Mrs. Mandela AND HER TEAM. Were you brave enough to watch the video? What video? I've travelled to South Africa many times and seen the ANC evidence and artifacts displayed in Howick - suggest you make a visit before embarrassing yourself even further Apologies, I missed posting the website earlier. Its here now. www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2EvZ8cYcC8
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Post by ratcliff on Jan 13, 2024 14:29:33 GMT
What video? I've travelled to South Africa many times and seen the ANC evidence and artifacts displayed in Howick - suggest you make a visit before embarrassing yourself even further Apologies, I missed posting the website earlier. Its here now. www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2EvZ8cYcC8Seen it before , several times over a few decades Anyhow What's ''brave'' about watching a CBS news report?
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Post by sandypine on Jan 13, 2024 16:52:33 GMT
He negotiated a peaceful end to apartheid and is rightly lauded for that but was imprisoned for offences of terrorism , he was head of the military wing of the ANC for many years (South Africa is still a country of violence with horrendous crime figures) For many whites abroad, he seems even Christ-like - someone who'd suffered for the sins of white guilt, and absolved those who believed in him of the sin of racism.But Mandela was no Christ nor even Gandhi nor Martin Luther King. He was for decades a man of violence. In 1961, he broke with African National Congress colleagues who preached non-violence, creating a terrorist wing.He later pleaded guilty in court to acts of public violence, and behind bars sanctioned more, including the 1983 Church St car bomb that killed 19 people.Mandela even suggested cutting off the noses of blacks deemed collaborators. His then wife Winnie advocated "necklacing" instead - a burning tyre around the neck.Mandela argued the apartheid regime left him no option but to fight violence with violence, but it is too easy to claim events proved him right. His legacy is not yet played out.Current president Jacob Zuma until recently still publicly sang the anti-apartheid song, Shoot the Boer, in a still-divided country where many white farmers have been shot.www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/the-dark-side-of-nelson-mandela/news-story/68f4acdbf2b0b4e6c799e458a55e6cb2Thank you, I stand corrected. He was initially a peaceful demonstrator, I was not sure about his activity after the "police killing of unarmed protestors in the "Sharpeville massacre 1960". Wiki. --"The Sharpeville massacre occurred on 21 March 1960 at the police station in the township of Sharpeville in the then Transvaal Province of the then Union of South Africa (today part of Gauteng). After demonstrating against anti-black pass laws, a crowd of about 7,000 black protesters went to the police station. Sources disagree as to the behaviour of the crowd: some state that the crowd was peaceful, while others state that the crowd had been hurling stones at the police and that the mood had turned "ugly". The South African Police (SAP) opened fire on the crowd when the crowd started advancing toward the fence around the police station; tear-gas had proved ineffectual. There were 249 victims in total, including 29 children, with 69 people killed and 180 injured. Some were shot in the back as they fled"-- The demonstrators / protestors included women and children. Once again the events around Sharpeville have to be remembered and as always are in dispute. A month or so before a protesting crowd had killed nine policemen(four white and nine black) in Durban and the police in Sharpeville were at best edgy and wary of any movement towards the police station most especially in a threatening manner. It is clear from the video that some in the crowd were carrying knobkerries or similar and arguments persist on whether stones were thrown. My understanding is that some of the police were black in Sharpeville and there is little doubt the crowd were at best threatening. Similar can be recalled where striking miners were fired upon as they advanced on police with raised sticks a few years back.
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Post by see2 on Jan 13, 2024 17:01:35 GMT
Seen it before , several times over a few decades Anyhow What's ''brave'' about watching a CBS news report? That mixed bunch of unarmed protesters never looked like a dangerous bunch looking for trouble. You are entitled to ignore what you see if that's what you wish to do. When I last visited South Africa I did the Penguins, the inside of a cage to visit the Great white sharks, A reasonably local vineyard etc. On one visit I stayed at a Safari Camp, excellent meals and surroundings open 24 hours a day so one needed to to wait for the all clear knock on your accommodation before venturing forth in the morning and to be careful when entering or leaving the camp and a quite interesting visit to the lions in an open backed Rover. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests.
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Post by see2 on Jan 13, 2024 17:08:54 GMT
Thank you, I stand corrected. He was initially a peaceful demonstrator, I was not sure about his activity after the "police killing of unarmed protestors in the "Sharpeville massacre 1960". Wiki. --"The Sharpeville massacre occurred on 21 March 1960 at the police station in the township of Sharpeville in the then Transvaal Province of the then Union of South Africa (today part of Gauteng). After demonstrating against anti-black pass laws, a crowd of about 7,000 black protesters went to the police station. Sources disagree as to the behaviour of the crowd: some state that the crowd was peaceful, while others state that the crowd had been hurling stones at the police and that the mood had turned "ugly". The South African Police (SAP) opened fire on the crowd when the crowd started advancing toward the fence around the police station; tear-gas had proved ineffectual. There were 249 victims in total, including 29 children, with 69 people killed and 180 injured. Some were shot in the back as they fled"-- The demonstrators / protestors included women and children. Once again the events around Sharpeville have to be remembered and as always are in dispute. A month or so before a protesting crowd had killed nine policemen(four white and nine black) in Durban and the police in Sharpeville were at best edgy and wary of any movement towards the police station most especially in a threatening manner. It is clear from the video that some in the crowd were carrying knobkerries or similar and arguments persist on whether stones were thrown. My understanding is that some of the police were black in Sharpeville and there is little doubt the crowd were at best threatening. Similar can be recalled where striking miners were fired upon as they advanced on police with raised sticks a few years back. The fact that the police kept shooting as the protestors were running away along with the fact that the police knew they had the firearms, not the protestors, also along with the number of deaths and injured, suggests to me that some whitewashing of the event by the police and those against the protestors, has taken place.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 13, 2024 17:33:44 GMT
Once again the events around Sharpeville have to be remembered and as always are in dispute. A month or so before a protesting crowd had killed nine policemen(four white and nine black) in Durban and the police in Sharpeville were at best edgy and wary of any movement towards the police station most especially in a threatening manner. It is clear from the video that some in the crowd were carrying knobkerries or similar and arguments persist on whether stones were thrown. My understanding is that some of the police were black in Sharpeville and there is little doubt the crowd were at best threatening. Similar can be recalled where striking miners were fired upon as they advanced on police with raised sticks a few years back. The fact that the police kept shooting as the protestors were running away along with the fact that the police knew they had the firearms, not the protestors, also along with the number of deaths and injured, suggests to me that some whitewashing of the event by the police and those against the protestors, has taken place. Realistically you do not know what the police either knew or believed but we do know that they did know policemen had been killed by an 'unarmed' group of protestors anmonth before. No doubt both sides played the propaganda game. Unarmed peaceful protestors cut down by dictatorial police to maintain law and order against violent threatening protestors throwing stones and assaulting police officers. No doubt the truth is a mix of all and somewhere in between. However the actions of mainly black police against black miners at Marikana indicates that not much has changed.
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Post by ratcliff on Jan 13, 2024 19:50:37 GMT
Seen it before , several times over a few decades Anyhow What's ''brave'' about watching a CBS news report? That mixed bunch of unarmed protesters never looked like a dangerous bunch looking for trouble. You are entitled to ignore what you see if that's what you wish to do. When I last visited South Africa I did the Penguins, the inside of a cage to visit the Great white sharks, A reasonably local vineyard etc. On one visit I stayed at a Safari Camp, excellent meals and surroundings open 24 hours a day so one needed to to wait for the all clear knock on your accommodation before venturing forth in the morning and to be careful when entering or leaving the camp and a quite interesting visit to the lions in an open backed Rover. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests. You asked if I'd been ''brave'' enough to watch the CBS news report I'm still waiting , what is ''brave '' about watching an old news report that I've seen many times? Lots of safari accommodation in South Africa but you only saw lions - strange for a game reserve , Boulders beach is fab , plenty of controversy over tourists in shark cages as it is widely believed that the shark feeding used to attract the sharks for tourist photos has played a significant part in the increased shark attacks near beaches. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests.
Odd comment
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Post by see2 on Jan 14, 2024 11:23:15 GMT
That mixed bunch of unarmed protesters never looked like a dangerous bunch looking for trouble. You are entitled to ignore what you see if that's what you wish to do. When I last visited South Africa I did the Penguins, the inside of a cage to visit the Great white sharks, A reasonably local vineyard etc. On one visit I stayed at a Safari Camp, excellent meals and surroundings open 24 hours a day so one needed to to wait for the all clear knock on your accommodation before venturing forth in the morning and to be careful when entering or leaving the camp and a quite interesting visit to the lions in an open backed Rover. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests. You asked if I'd been ''brave'' enough to watch the CBS news report I'm still waiting , what is ''brave '' about watching an old news report that I've seen many times?Lots of safari accommodation in South Africa but you only saw lions - strange for a game reserve , Boulders beach is fab , plenty of controversy over tourists in shark cages as it is widely believed that the shark feeding used to attract the sharks for tourist photos has played a significant part in the increased shark attacks near beaches. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests.
Odd comment The video blows a great big hole in you repeatedly insinuated attempts to make the protesters appear as mostly bad people who caused themselves to be shot at by the police. An obvious point of view that you oddly describe as odd.
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Post by see2 on Jan 14, 2024 11:27:32 GMT
The fact that the police kept shooting as the protestors were running away along with the fact that the police knew they had the firearms, not the protestors, also along with the number of deaths and injured, suggests to me that some whitewashing of the event by the police and those against the protestors, has taken place. Realistically you do not know what the police either knew or believed but we do know that they did know policemen had been killed by an 'unarmed' group of protestors anmonth before. No doubt both sides played the propaganda game. Unarmed peaceful protestors cut down by dictatorial police to maintain law and order against violent threatening protestors throwing stones and assaulting police officers. No doubt the truth is a mix of all and somewhere in between. However the actions of mainly black police against black miners at Marikana indicates that not much has changed. I posted a video showing the unarmed demonstrators fleeing from the firing by the police. Why were some shot in the back?
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Post by sandypine on Jan 14, 2024 15:46:03 GMT
Realistically you do not know what the police either knew or believed but we do know that they did know policemen had been killed by an 'unarmed' group of protestors anmonth before. No doubt both sides played the propaganda game. Unarmed peaceful protestors cut down by dictatorial police to maintain law and order against violent threatening protestors throwing stones and assaulting police officers. No doubt the truth is a mix of all and somewhere in between. However the actions of mainly black police against black miners at Marikana indicates that not much has changed. I posted a video showing the unarmed demonstrators fleeing from the firing by the police. Why were some shot in the back? Similar to Marikana where most miners were shot in the back. Once the firing starts then it is difficult to get it stopped and if you fire at an individual attacking you and miss then the shot may find another target. I am not excusing merely pointing out that things are never as cut and dried as some would have us believe and returning to Mandela there is little doubt from all the available evidence he supported the armed struggle which involved terrorist activity including bombs and necklacing. Yet he has a statue in London unmolested a few summers back by most protestors who were busy daubing and vandalising many statues. Strange when Mandela's statue was attacked it became a hate crime.
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Post by see2 on Jan 14, 2024 16:52:00 GMT
I posted a video showing the unarmed demonstrators fleeing from the firing by the police. Why were some shot in the back? Similar to Marikana where most miners were shot in the back. Once the firing starts then it is difficult to get it stopped and if you fire at an individual attacking you and miss then the shot may find another target. I am not excusing merely pointing out that things are never as cut and dried as some would have us believe and returning to Mandela there is little doubt from all the available evidence he supported the armed struggle which involved terrorist activity including bombs and necklacing. Yet he has a statue in London unmolested a few summers back by most protestors who were busy daubing and vandalising many statues. Strange when Mandela's statue was attacked it became a hate crime. There is no evidence that the protesters fired at the police. So stop trying to find excuses for this outrage committed by the police. He was a peaceful demonstrator prior to the massacre by the police. That outrage could have turned Jesus into a violent fighter for justice.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 14, 2024 17:57:40 GMT
Similar to Marikana where most miners were shot in the back. Once the firing starts then it is difficult to get it stopped and if you fire at an individual attacking you and miss then the shot may find another target. I am not excusing merely pointing out that things are never as cut and dried as some would have us believe and returning to Mandela there is little doubt from all the available evidence he supported the armed struggle which involved terrorist activity including bombs and necklacing. Yet he has a statue in London unmolested a few summers back by most protestors who were busy daubing and vandalising many statues. Strange when Mandela's statue was attacked it became a hate crime. There is no evidence that the protesters fired at the police. So stop trying to find excuses for this outrage committed by the police. He was a peaceful demonstrator prior to the massacre by the police. That outrage could have turned Jesus into a violent fighter for justice. I think in Durban the nine policemen were beaten to death with knobkerries, sticks, stones and feet. I am not finding excuses I am indicating that like all things there are causes and effects and the trail of those is long and arduous. EDIT just a thought if one is fighting injustice and seeking justice why kill those for whom you are seeking that justice. The Church street bomb killed a good dozen black citizens and necklacing was as far as I am aware was on black citizens in total
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Post by ratcliff on Jan 15, 2024 1:13:34 GMT
You asked if I'd been ''brave'' enough to watch the CBS news report I'm still waiting , what is ''brave '' about watching an old news report that I've seen many times?Lots of safari accommodation in South Africa but you only saw lions - strange for a game reserve , Boulders beach is fab , plenty of controversy over tourists in shark cages as it is widely believed that the shark feeding used to attract the sharks for tourist photos has played a significant part in the increased shark attacks near beaches. What people do in South Africa is of course down to their own interests.
Odd comment The video blows a great big hole in you repeatedly insinuated attempts to make the protesters appear as mostly bad people who caused themselves to be shot at by the police. An obvious point of view that you oddly describe as odd. You imagination is running riot as usual and you still running away from clarifying what is ''brave' about watching an 60 year old news report
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Post by see2 on Jan 15, 2024 12:04:44 GMT
There is no evidence that the protesters fired at the police. So stop trying to find excuses for this outrage committed by the police. He was a peaceful demonstrator prior to the massacre by the police. That outrage could have turned Jesus into a violent fighter for justice. I think in Durban the nine policemen were beaten to death with knobkerries, sticks, stones and feet. I am not finding excuses I am indicating that like all things there are causes and effects and the trail of those is long and arduous. EDIT just a thought if one is fighting injustice and seeking justice why kill those for whom you are seeking that justice. The Church street bomb killed a good dozen black citizens and necklacing was as far as I am aware was on black citizens in total The police started shooting and failed to stop when there was absolutely no, imagined or real, danger to them. Stop looking for excuses.
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