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Post by buccaneer on Nov 22, 2022 22:31:47 GMT
I asked you for three examples. You only gave me one - the tired old "what is a woman" question - to which my answer would be it depends on the context. Lol You want a definition on what "woke" means, yet you need "context" to define what a woman is. haha
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Post by sandypine on Nov 22, 2022 22:40:37 GMT
So Sandy if by “affirmative” action you actually meant “positive action” , a term legally defined’ why not say “positive action”?? Weird. If I understand you correctly Sandy you are saying that a person must be “woke” if they broadly support the principle that an employer may, in order to broaden the talent pool from which they select, take a range of measures designed to encourage people from under represented groups to apply and aid them to overcome embedded disadvantages in competing with other applicants BUT while ensuring that in all recruitment decisions, the role should never be awarded to an applicant not judged the best qualified. So for example say a Westcountry police force may stage a recruitment fair in an area of a city which has a large number of black people but cannot legally restrict award of jobs to those with a certain colour skin If that is your definition of woke, then I must wear the woke badge of honour with pride. That concept seems entirely logical and sensible to me although as ever the devil in each case is in the detail. You are a bright guy Sandy. You know that your TV ads example does not remotely prove your case. It is puzzling that when asked for examples to prove your case, you choose to use such a patently silly one. You must know that simply undermines your argument or are you relying that the majority on this form are so gullible and so radicalised that you can get away with any nonsense and still get them nodding. Not weird at all ask Totheleft3 I merely kept to his words to avoid confusion. It seems I was mistaken. I am saying woke supports racial discrimination. A west country police force may act as you say, they may also select specific candidates, using racial discrimination, for extra training to ensure they are 'equally qualified' to be promoted. The whole basis of the positive action is that 'look at the representation. it is not proportional by a large margin therefore racial discrimination must be at work'. Well look at the adverts, any fool can see they are not proportional by a large margin therefore racial discrimination must be at work. The point is, being woke, you believe the adverts case is of no consequence and proof of RW racism. So my examples were fine and you can rest assured you are indeed woke.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 22, 2022 22:41:45 GMT
I asked you for three examples. You only gave me one - the tired old "what is a woman" question - to which my answer would be it depends on the context. Lol You want a definition on what "woke" means, yet you need "context" to define what a woman is. haha I even gave him the context.
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Post by dappy on Nov 22, 2022 22:51:11 GMT
No the whole basis of positive action is to ensure the widest possible talent pool of applicants to select the best people for the job from. So for example if you are seeking young physically fit young people to make up your 100 strong workforce in an area where 20% of the workforce have black skin, if you look at your workforce and discover that there are no workers with black skin, it is suggestive (but not completely proven) that you may be fishing in a smaller pond than the regions population (unless of course there is a reason why people with black skin are intrinsically less able to do the job. If you have to be woke to understand this basic maths, then feck me I must indeed be “woke”
Do you really need me to explain to you again why adverts are as they are?
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Post by sandypine on Nov 22, 2022 23:00:30 GMT
No the whole basis of positive action is to ensure the widest possible talent pool of applicants to select the best people for the job from. So for example if you are seeking young physically fit young people to make up your 100 strong workforce in an area where 20% of the workforce have black skin, if you look at your workforce and discover that there are no workers with black skin, it is suggestive (but not completely proven) that you may be fishing in a smaller pond than the regions population (unless of course there is a reason why people with black skin are intrinsically less able to do the job. If you have to be woke to understand this basic maths, then feck me I must indeed be “woke” Do you really need me to explain to you again why adverts are as they are? That is rubbish as we would have no need for diversity which is seen as a positive thing and promoted as such by governments and equality groups. So you have to have diversity which restricts your pool becasue you have to have a range of peoples. Understanding that different ethnic groups have on average different abilities is the principle that the woke find difficult to understand and regard proportionality as the key to equality. Yes.
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Post by dappy on Nov 22, 2022 23:04:59 GMT
You have misunderstood the very basis of the inclusivity agenda Sandy. It seems your prejudice has inhibited your ability to think logically. It’s late. I’ll let you reflect overnight. Is this the person you really want to be?
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Post by Orac on Nov 23, 2022 1:41:49 GMT
If this were the rationale, diversity wouldn't matter much unless the organisation were exclusively drawing from a minority. It would also matter far more that minorities wee over-represented, than if majorities were
Of course - this isn't the rationale. The happy clappy, church-of-woke rationale is that 'diversity is a strength' in itself - ie the more 'diversity' (in these characteristics), the better, regardless of population pools or representation. This, of course, drives a horse a coaches through the notion that candidates should be chosen regardless of these characteristics, because they don't matter.
Sandy is pointing directly at one of many logical inconsistencies in the stories told about this nonsense. In my view most of it is just motivated by various forms of racial animus
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Post by Toreador on Nov 23, 2022 4:54:45 GMT
Woke is a term about which the woke consistently demand a meaning.
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 23, 2022 7:58:39 GMT
A divisive generational gap is emerging where young students between 18-25 are sceptical of freedom of speech, democracy and tolerance. These young indoctrinated self-loathers prefer censorship and this just about sums up the view of the Wokerati. Worrying but not surprising: Critical race theory is being taught as factMention woke indoctrination in schools and most people might imagine something like a pink-haired, nonbinary teacher forcing children to take the knee for Black Lives Matter. If you look on TikTok, you will find no shortage of such teachers gleefully revealing how they sneak Pride flags, LGBTQ+ books and BLM posters into the classroom. Certainly, there are plenty of activist teachers working in schools, who see pupils as a captive audience. Yet as worrying as such examples may be, they are merely the tip of the iceberg. New research conducted for Policy Exchange by author and academic Eric Kaufmann suggests that activist teaching is now extremely widespread in the UK. What’s more, it is beginning to have an impact on the views of young people. Polling for The Politics of the Culture Wars in Contemporary Britain, published last week, finds that six out of 10 school leavers say they were either taught about ideas associated with critical race theory, or they heard about them from an adult at their school.
These include concepts like white privilege, systemic racism and unconscious bias. Slightly more – 65 per cent – say they either encountered the concept of patriarchy or the idea that there are multiple genders from adults at school. ...These ideas have gained ground precisely because it is not just pink-haired TikTok teachers who are intent on promoting a one-sided, politically motivated view of the world. It is also the academics who write the school curriculum and textbooks. It is the university educationalists who train each new generation of teachers. It is the journalists and campaigners outside of schools who agitate for their own pet issues to gain a hearing in the classroom. And it is the people who stock the school library and put together online resources for teachers and children alike. The upshot is that when it comes to English, history, geography and even maths, the curriculum itself has become politicised. www.spiked-online.com/2022/11/22/critical-race-theory-is-being-taught-as-fact/Commenting on the report, Dr Samir Shah, a member of the Government’s Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, said: “Views which remain on the fringe in society as a whole, are held by a significant number, or even a majority, by voters in this age category. “But what makes the survey disturbing is that these new attitudes challenge the very foundations of liberal thought: free speech, tolerance, debate, and democracy.”
She said that views “taking hold” among young people “run against many Enlightenment values”, leading to a “world in which nuance and tolerance is being replaced by intolerance and a fear of speaking one’s mind”.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/19/teach-britain-founded-racism-say-almost-half-young-people-poll/
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Post by sandypine on Nov 23, 2022 9:35:08 GMT
You have misunderstood the very basis of the inclusivity agenda Sandy. It seems your prejudice has inhibited your ability to think logically. It’s late. I’ll let you reflect overnight. Is this the person you really want to be? On the contrary I am applying the logic that supposedly underpins the whole inclusivity agenda. Inclusivity means everyone is included but that means they are included within society as equal citizens not as people with special rights to employment or opportunity. It is the timeless question as regards racial discrimination and the argument is always unfair racial discrimination is bad. That then begs the question what is unfair. In simple terms it is making a judgement and a selection based on a person's assumed belonging to a particular racial or ethnic group. Positive action makes that judgement and that selection by assuming advantage to one candidate based on their race or ethnicity and rejecting them becasue of it. Could you explain the adverts again please as I am at a loss as to why the proportional discrepancy is so large. If inclusivity is the goal as per proportionality in society then advertisers are not meeting that goal at all with white men.
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Post by dappy on Nov 23, 2022 10:18:47 GMT
You have misunderstood the very basis of the inclusivity agenda Sandy. It seems your prejudice has inhibited your ability to think logically. It’s late. I’ll let you reflect overnight. Is this the person you really want to be? On the contrary I am applying the logic that supposedly underpins the whole inclusivity agenda. Inclusivity means everyone is included but that means they are included within society as equal citizens not as people with special rights to employment or opportunity. It is the timeless question as regards racial discrimination and the argument is always unfair racial discrimination is bad. That then begs the question what is unfair. In simple terms it is making a judgement and a selection based on a person's assumed belonging to a particular racial or ethnic group. Positive action makes that judgement and that selection by assuming advantage to one candidate based on their race or ethnicity and rejecting them becasue of it. Could you explain the adverts again please as I am at a loss as to why the proportional discrepancy is so large. If inclusivity is the goal as per proportionality in society then advertisers are not meeting that goal at all with white men. Sadly Sandy I think you have let your racial prejudices cloud your judgement. To be clear employers are not allowed to reject people because of their colour skin - whether that skin is white or brown. That's the law. All positive action is doing is recognising that if your area has 20% black people but your workforce has 0% black people, it is suggestive that you are fishing in a smaller pond for your new recruits and therefore suggestive that you are not getting the best possible people for your company. It may not be of course - it may be statistical coincedance, there may be some factor that makes white people in your are more qualified for the jobs than black people or it may be that your workforce is too small for the sample to nbe statistically significant. Positive action just gives you the right to try to address the issue if your company feels it is missing out on the best recruits. I am surprised we are having to go over race in TV advertisements again. Its pretty obvious. An advertiser, lets say Fairy Liquid, has perhaps 30 seconds to sell its product to as many people in the UK that it can. A typical ad will have perhaps two characters. They want the viewing public to buy into the characters and their story and hence be like them using the product. To do so the advertiser wants the character to be cheery, approachable, reasonably attractive and as much like the viewers as possible. If there is one character they will almost invariably by white skinned as they look like most viewers, if there are two characters the second character will often be blackskinned as nothing to be gained by having a second white skinned person and the second black skinned person can subconsciously appear more like them to the ethnic monority audience. Its not about making political statements - its all about selling bottles of fairy liquid.
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Post by Orac on Nov 23, 2022 12:03:04 GMT
A typical ad will have perhaps two characters. They want the viewing public to buy into the characters and their story and hence be like them using the product. To do so the advertiser wants the character to be cheery, approachable, reasonably attractive and as much like the viewers as possible. If there is one character they will almost invariably by white skinned as they look like most viewers, if there are two characters the second character will often be blackskinned as nothing to be gained by having a second white skinned person and the second black skinned person can subconsciously appear more like them to the ethnic monority audience. Its not about making political statements - its all about selling bottles of fairy liquid. This is little more than a conjecture. For instance, it relies on the assumption that you reliably gain more than you lose with the second character. If the two demographics were 50%-50% of the population, this would be almost certain, but when one demographic is ~ 10%, it is far, far less clear. An alternative explanation is that advertising owners, staff in advertising companies or financiers are using their role in society to communicate their antipathy to the majority demographic (in the UK). However, that's a rather bold hypothesis and would need to be backed up by patterns other than this. Although your conjecture is tenuous, it can't excluded logically Other supporting patterns include- 1) Such campaigns being doggedly pursued even to the financial detriment of the company pursuing them. 2) As you note, a two character situation creates a dichotomy that limits possibilities. However this pattern of gigantic minority over-representation extends into multiple character situations, where the same dichotomy (and your explanation) doesn't hold. 3) The notable and reliable 'mixed partnership pattern' in which one particular sex is almost always white and the other black - ie the particular pattern of partnership that might be calculated to 'stick it white-maley the hardest' 3 is quite important because the pattern is reliable and there really is only one sensible explanation. Once a sizeable, deliberate pattern of antipathy is detected, there isn't much need to quibble over the rest
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Post by dappy on Nov 23, 2022 12:18:14 GMT
TV advertisements are approved by the Companies placing the individual adverts Mags. They are paying (a lot) for the 30 seconds or so of TV, they get what they want. Its not done collectively - Fairy Liquid (Proctor and Gamble) decide their ad without discussing with Tesco who might be the next ad to come on or Saga who have the next one.
P&G design their ad to whatever they think will sell them the most bottles of Fairy Liquid.
They do copious amounts of market research before and afterwards. If P+G concluded that a mixed race couple resulted in lower sales than an all white skinned couple, the next ad would have an all white skinned couple. It really is that simple.
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Post by see2 on Nov 23, 2022 12:21:12 GMT
Woke is a term about which the woke consistently demand a meaning. Nah, woke is a term overused by the real woke who are either too lazy to debate conravesal issues or don't have the capacity to debate them.
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Post by Orac on Nov 23, 2022 12:40:31 GMT
P&G design their ad to whatever they think will sell them the most bottles of Fairy Liquid. And i suppose, similarly, an employer will , through self interest, theoretically select the candidate he feels will provide the most economically effective employment for him. Which makes me now wonder why we have substantial laws against racial discrimination for employers. Theoretically, these laws aren't / weren't needed because the self interest of employer answers the question.
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