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Post by Einhorn on Dec 23, 2023 18:21:37 GMT
If an egalitarian society turning non-egalitarian proves your point, a non-egalitarian society turning egalitarian proves mine. I never used such to substantiate my point. My point is that we don't see it. Successful societies are not egalitarian - this suggests there are advantages to being non-egalitarian. It doesn't prove that egalitarian societies would not be successful. Your claim otherwise is an untested hypothesis. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 23, 2023 18:30:23 GMT
I never used such to substantiate my point. My point is that we don't see it. Successful societies are not egalitarian - this suggests there are advantages to being non-egalitarian. It doesn't prove that egalitarian societies would not be successful. Your claim otherwise is an untested hypothesis. ..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 23, 2023 18:32:08 GMT
It doesn't prove that egalitarian societies would not be successful. Your claim otherwise is an untested hypothesis. ..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no Well, yes, of course revolutions have produced mountains of dead bodies. Unfortunately, the dead have often been the innocent. For example, there was an attempt to create a more equal society at Peterloo, and that resulted in a small mountain of dead bodies. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 23, 2023 19:12:12 GMT
It doesn't prove that egalitarian societies would not be successful. Your claim otherwise is an untested hypothesis. ..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no A bit unfair, mostly indigenous society was nudging along fine until the conquerors arrived with their big ideas. In fact, they built monuments that people still struggle to get their heads around today. Were trading without much of a problem and could grow and hunt enough food to sustain themselves without that many problems. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 23, 2023 19:50:20 GMT
..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no Well, yes, of course revolutions have produced mountains of dead bodies. Unfortunately, the dead have often been the innocent. For example, there was an attempt to create a more equal society at Peterloo, and that resulted in a small mountain of dead bodies. No working egalitarian society - just dead bodies. Btw - with many of these experiments the deaths just went on and and on way past the point of the revolution (war). |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 23, 2023 19:52:02 GMT
Well, yes, of course revolutions have produced mountains of dead bodies. Unfortunately, the dead have often been the innocent. For example, there was an attempt to create a more equal society at Peterloo, and that resulted in a small mountain of dead bodies. No working egalitarian society - just dead bodies. Btw - with many of these experiments the deaths just went on and and on way past the point of the revolution (war). Yep, and the bodies piled up in the early days of capitalism, too. Just look at the Bloody Code. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 23, 2023 20:14:13 GMT
No working egalitarian society - just dead bodies. Btw - with many of these experiments the deaths just went on and and on way past the point of the revolution (war). Yep, and the bodies piled up in the early days of capitalism, too. Just look at the Bloody Code. ..but working societies resulted. 'The egalitarian alternative' fails every time. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 23, 2023 20:15:59 GMT
..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no A bit unfair, mostly indigenous society was nudging along fine until the conquerors arrived with their big ideas. Lol |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 23, 2023 20:17:02 GMT
Yep, and the bodies piled up in the early days of capitalism, too. Just look at the Bloody Code. ..but working societies resulted. The 'egalitarian alternative' fails every time. What egalitarian alternative? As mentioned, mankind has lived an egalitarian existence for 95% of its time on earth. Are you referring to Russia's Stalinism? Yes, that failed. It failed badly, resulting in literally millions of innocent deaths. But nobody ever claimed that egalitarianism could work in those conditions. Marx himself said that Marxism would only ever work in a society with a long tradition of democracy and an advanced industrial economy. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 23, 2023 20:25:46 GMT
..but working societies resulted. The 'egalitarian alternative' fails every time. What egalitarian alternative? As mentioned, mankind has lived an egalitarian existence for 95% of its time on earth. We have very little clear idea about the nature of societies people lived in before about 3000 BC. You keep returning to this gibberish, but even if were true it's more indicative that this societal model not only failed, but failed without leaving much behind |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 23, 2023 20:29:54 GMT
What egalitarian alternative? As mentioned, mankind has lived an egalitarian existence for 95% of its time on earth. We have very little clear idea about the nature of societies people lived in before about 3000 BC. You keep returning to this gibberish, but even if were true it's more indicative that this societal model not only failed, but failed without leaving much behind Let's just content ourselves with the fact that the trend has been towards egalitarianism for a long time, then. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 23, 2023 21:24:05 GMT
The aristocracy based their rule upon family and demanded that all others accepted that within the society. However the egalitarian societies that were the earliest societies according to you, and were around far longer did not work, all other societies tend to keep to the same general plan of being is some form of hierarchical either through family, religious, wealth or elite.Unequal societies tend to thrive in general terms and as they change they tend to change within the context of being the same but with a different ruling class. Egalitarian societies disapppear altogether They did work. They worked for 95% of the time mankind has been on this earth. Societal structure changed when material conditions changed. There is no reason to believe societal structures won't change again if material conditions change again. Let's hope it's for the better this better time. Unequal societies do thrive. You won't get any argument there. But they tend to 'thrive' for a small number. But they worked, and it is not known to what degree, in a time of sparse human habitation and we know not what their relationship was with other bands/tribes/kin groups close by. They have not been able to exist as the population increased beyond the Neolithic. We are looking for systems that meet the needs of the modern world and not work only in teh stone age. Although some would say that is exactly where net zero will deposit us. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 23, 2023 21:28:57 GMT
We have very little clear idea about the nature of societies people lived in before about 3000 BC. You keep returning to this gibberish, but even if were true it's more indicative that this societal model not only failed, but failed without leaving much behind Let's just content ourselves with the fact that the trend has been towards egalitarianism for a long time, then. The trend has been towards more compassionate societies, how they work and upon whom is always moot, but they are not egalitarian and never will be in the strict sense of the word. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 23, 2023 22:06:13 GMT
..all attempts to test the hypothesis have failed to produce an egalitarian society - mountains of dead bodies, yes, working societies that people want to live in, no A bit unfair, mostly indigenous society was nudging along fine until the conquerors arrived with their big ideas. In fact, they built monuments that people still struggle to get their heads around today. Were trading without much of a problem and could grow and hunt enough food to sustain themselves without that many problems. but there was nothing egalitarian about them - the tribal leader held ultimate sway over the lives of their subjects.. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 23, 2023 22:09:25 GMT
Let's just content ourselves with the fact that the trend has been towards egalitarianism for a long time, then. The trend has been towards more compassionate societies, how they work and upon whom is always moot, but they are not egalitarian and never will be in the strict sense of the word. I was under the impression that we do live in an egalitarian society, at least in a loose sense of the word. |
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