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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 12, 2023 17:14:50 GMT
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.Carl Sagan. 
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 18:16:23 GMT
That is truly awesome, and it really does in a way show how little our own concerns matter in the greater scheme of things. All the things we each spend so much time stressing about right now won't matter a single iota in a hundred years from now. A mere blink of an eye in the life of that tiny blue dot which is everything we know and everything anyone who has ever lived has ever known. Every human who has ever lived, great or small, good or bad, rich or poor, male or female, has lived out their lives on that tiny blue dot. And long before we came about, every dinosaur, every reptilian, every fish, every amoeba, all on that tiny blue dot. We are not that significant in the universe. If we all died tomorrow the universe wouldnt even notice. And the earth would still be here.
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Post by sheepy on Dec 12, 2023 18:22:00 GMT
A very tiny meaningless dot in the universe Red, puts it all in perspective.
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Post by Vanna on Dec 13, 2023 8:09:01 GMT
I am a Nordic Pagan, as some of you know, and in our belief system there is the notion that because we are mere transient bits of flesh on a world that has no interest in us what is important to us is what we do that is of merit while we are here. "The fame of a dead man's deeds" is how it is put in our literature. To be a scoundrel, a shit, a thief, a killer or a nasty little troll makes one a nothing. To rise above and be the best anyone can be is worthy. It seems pointless which is why many don't bother but we tend to believe that it matters, that it evolves the soul (because we believe in one) and that the more complex we make our consciousness and knowledge, the further we go away from dimensions like his one.
This may all be utter bull and there is little to prove that it is not, but as this view sustained our best ancestors it is good enough for those of us who respect them. Teaching people to throw their heritage out of the window along with their ancestors and history, or, worse, to fabricate histories for them based on purely ideological and political skullduggery to the detriment not only of those concerned but also to those who need identity and a sense of belonging, is a crime against humanity. So is the murderous waste of acquisitive warfare and the oppression of the human spirit.
Everyone everywhere in the universe is just a little speck of dust. And in view of that vastness and anonymity it seems useful and honourable to forge a reason why we should endeavour to improve and not sink backward and downward into oblivion, ignorance, suffering and despair. And, worse, to cause others to do so at our hands.
There are an increasing number of people who think giving everything up to cure ourselves of ourselves is a marvellous idea and there are many now who suggest that if we disagree we should be punished by shunning and reprogramming. Some would even like us killed.
All the same ... "Cattle die, and kinsmen die, And so one dies one's self; One thing now, that never dies, The fame of a dead man's deeds."
Sagan is right, we live on a little blue dot in a sunbeam and we simply don't appreciate it. We think it's some sort of gift. It is a serendipitous anomaly and it isn't forever. We're killing it and we're too preoccupied with our own hubris to care. But we are the only little blue dot that is viable for many light years. If we fade away, nothing will change and no one will care because there isn't anyone to care. There is just us and our seemingly magical little world. We should not only think of the smallness of our existence but also the magnitude of the matrix in which we came to be. We have no idea what is out there or how many dimensions there may be. Nor do we know whether we can travel to these or if our consciousness can survive death of our bodies. There are those who are aware of the intriguing possibilities but most continue to burrow in the muck, worrying about things that aren't going to last and trying to control everything in order to somehow make themselves great. One would hope that we might have gone beyond this habit but we seem to be regressing ...
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Post by Orac on Dec 13, 2023 11:37:24 GMT
Have you ever had a really bizarre dream that made perfect sense and felt perfectly real when you were in it, but the moment you awake seems so odd and fractured, you can barely understand how you mistook it for reality?
That's us that is.
We are talking rocks living on a rock shooting through space and thinking everything is perfectly normal
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Post by see2 on Dec 13, 2023 15:19:23 GMT
Have you ever had a really bizarre dream that made perfect sense and felt perfectly real when you were in it, but the moment you awake seems so odd and fractured, you can barely understand how you mistook it for reality? That's us that is. We are talking rocks living on a rock shooting through space and thinking everything is perfectly normal Things are normal is my guess, how else could they be. Its just people that distort things. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 13, 2023 16:51:18 GMT
Have you ever had a really bizarre dream that made perfect sense and felt perfectly real when you were in it, but the moment you awake seems so odd and fractured, you can barely understand how you mistook it for reality? That's us that is. We are talking rocks living on a rock shooting through space and thinking everything is perfectly normal Things are normal is my guess, how else could they be. That's just how it feels when you are in a bizarre dream. How normal is this life really? |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 13, 2023 17:51:55 GMT
Things are normal is my guess, how else could they be. That's just how it feels when you are in a bizarre dream. How normal is this life really? The meaning of one's life, intriguing, does it even require a meaning? |
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Post by Vanna on Dec 14, 2023 6:30:17 GMT
Orac, the difference between dreaming and wakefulness is that in a dream you don't actually feel anything. Much goes wrong because you are in a kind of hall of distorted mirrors. Reality doesn't live there because reality hurts. If you feel genuine pain or fear in a dream you are having a flashback that is wrapped in a dream. Reality is intruding and memory is seeping through in a relived experience. Doesn't happen that often but does happen. If you analyze yourself deeply enough when awake you will find yourself saying to yourself in a bizarre dream that you are dreaming. You will begin to be able, even in that crazy landscape, to realise that you not awake.
It's the same with hallucinations caused by drugs. They may seem real to those suffering them, but they fade with the drug's effects. Reality returns (hopefully) because reality has no choice. For a sane brain, an undamaged consciousness, reality is the scary return (and sometimes the relief) of normality. Even if that normality is fraught with genuine stress (usually caused by other humans or natural catastrophe), it is the only thing we can rely on not to fade away. One can become oblivious to reality by brain damage, mental illness or disease but reality itself exists outside of this perception of it. This is difficult for those who have lapses in this perception of it. I sympathise that they cannot tell the difference and think that reality might also simply be a perception of a mental cognition resulting from a biological cause. But reality differs in that it exists outside of our personal perceptions. You fall, you hurt. You are shot, you bleed. You trip over stones and you contract illnesses and die. You witness others die. You see that there is something you can't lie about. Reality. The bald facts of what is in any particular dimension or state of being. Each will have its own basic reality. The imagination and the brain can concoct facsimiles and these can be vey convincing but do not measure up to the hard, cold facts of reality.
To genuinely escape reality seems impossible.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 14, 2023 7:02:38 GMT
Have you ever had a really bizarre dream that made perfect sense and felt perfectly real when you were in it, but the moment you awake seems so odd and fractured, you can barely understand how you mistook it for reality? That's us that is. We are talking rocks living on a rock shooting through space and thinking everything is perfectly normal It is perfectly normal.
It's all the other stuff that we get concerned about that's nonsense.
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Post by Orac on Dec 15, 2023 0:05:26 GMT
Orac, the difference between dreaming and wakefulness is that in a dream you don't actually feel anything. Much goes wrong because you are in a kind of hall of distorted mirrors. Reality doesn't live there because reality hurts. If you feel genuine pain or fear in a dream you are having a flashback that is wrapped in a dream. Reality is intruding and memory is seeping through in a relived experience. Doesn't happen that often but does happen. If you analyze yourself deeply enough when awake you will find yourself saying to yourself in a bizarre dream that you are dreaming. You will begin to be able, even in that crazy landscape, to realise that you not awake. It's the same with hallucinations caused by drugs. They may seem real to those suffering them, but they fade with the drug's effects. Reality returns (hopefully) because reality has no choice. For a sane brain, an undamaged consciousness, reality is the scary return (and sometimes the relief) of normality. Even if that normality is fraught with genuine stress (usually caused by other humans or natural catastrophe), it is the only thing we can rely on not to fade away. One can become oblivious to reality by brain damage, mental illness or disease but reality itself exists outside of this perception of it. This is difficult for those who have lapses in this perception of it. I sympathise that they cannot tell the difference and think that reality might also simply be a perception of a mental cognition resulting from a biological cause. But reality differs in that it exists outside of our personal perceptions. You fall, you hurt. You are shot, you bleed. You trip over stones and you contract illnesses and die. You witness others die. You see that there is something you can't lie about. Reality. The bald facts of what is in any particular dimension or state of being. Each will have its own basic reality. The imagination and the brain can concoct facsimiles and these can be vey convincing but do not measure up to the hard, cold facts of reality. To genuinely escape reality seems impossible. There is a lot here i agree with. I think the notion that we can transcend reality is a dangerous indulgence that encourages dishonesty. Whatever the fundamental nature of the world is, it is clear enough to me that i'm not nearly of the level of cleverness needed to fathom it. I think the basic values may sound boring, but they are key here - identify our weaknesses and put effort into correcting those things we can see and do something about.I have another notion to add here, but it is difficult to explain. There is a context to every perception. If you stand in a room and think about what you can see, it becomes clear there is not just the wallpaper and the mantelpiece and the carpet in your mind. There is also a context - or background world. This object is sensed (perhaps) or produced by your mind and it is the background colouring to everything you see. If this mental object changes then everything shifts. We don't have a word for this perceptual object, but i think this object is also produced (or altered) in a dream and it is why a dream feels like a world, rather than merely watching a light show. This is just my theory btw - i have tried but failed so far get a flicker of recognition from anyone i have explained it to. I'm in danger of going off-topic ..ha |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 15, 2023 1:22:40 GMT
That is truly awesome, and it really does in a way show how little our own concerns matter in the greater scheme of things. All the things we each spend so much time stressing about right now won't matter a single iota in a hundred years from now. A mere blink of an eye in the life of that tiny blue dot which is everything we know and everything anyone who has ever lived has ever known. Every human who has ever lived, great or small, good or bad, rich or poor, male or female, has lived out their lives on that tiny blue dot. And long before we came about, every dinosaur, every reptilian, every fish, every amoeba, all on that tiny blue dot. We are not that significant in the universe. If we all died tomorrow the universe wouldnt even notice. And the earth would still be here. Way to ruin my Christmas Steve. Here was I thinking my life mattered. Anyone got the number for the Samaritans? |
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Post by Vanna on Dec 15, 2023 6:40:28 GMT
Orac, the difference between dreaming and wakefulness is that in a dream you don't actually feel anything. Much goes wrong because you are in a kind of hall of distorted mirrors. Reality doesn't live there because reality hurts. If you feel genuine pain or fear in a dream you are having a flashback that is wrapped in a dream. Reality is intruding and memory is seeping through in a relived experience. Doesn't happen that often but does happen. If you analyze yourself deeply enough when awake you will find yourself saying to yourself in a bizarre dream that you are dreaming. You will begin to be able, even in that crazy landscape, to realise that you not awake. It's the same with hallucinations caused by drugs. They may seem real to those suffering them, but they fade with the drug's effects. Reality returns (hopefully) because reality has no choice. For a sane brain, an undamaged consciousness, reality is the scary return (and sometimes the relief) of normality. Even if that normality is fraught with genuine stress (usually caused by other humans or natural catastrophe), it is the only thing we can rely on not to fade away. One can become oblivious to reality by brain damage, mental illness or disease but reality itself exists outside of this perception of it. This is difficult for those who have lapses in this perception of it. I sympathise that they cannot tell the difference and think that reality might also simply be a perception of a mental cognition resulting from a biological cause. But reality differs in that it exists outside of our personal perceptions. You fall, you hurt. You are shot, you bleed. You trip over stones and you contract illnesses and die. You witness others die. You see that there is something you can't lie about. Reality. The bald facts of what is in any particular dimension or state of being. Each will have its own basic reality. The imagination and the brain can concoct facsimiles and these can be vey convincing but do not measure up to the hard, cold facts of reality. To genuinely escape reality seems impossible. There is a lot here i agree with. I think the notion that we can transcend reality is a dangerous indulgence that encourages dishonesty. Whatever the fundamental nature of the world is, it is clear enough to me that i'm not nearly of the level of cleverness needed to fathom it. I think the basic values may sound boring, but they are key here - identify our weaknesses and put effort into correcting those things we can see and do something about.I have another notion to add here, but it is difficult to explain. There is a context to every perception. If you stand in a room and think about what you can see, it becomes clear there is not just the wallpaper and the mantelpiece and the carpet in your mind. There is also a context - or background world. This object is sensed (perhaps) or produced by your mind and it is the background colouring to everything you see. If this mental object changes then everything shifts. We don't have a word for this perceptual object, but i think this object is also produced (or altered) in a dream and it is why a dream feels like a world, rather than merely watching a light show. This is just my theory btw - i have tried but failed so far get a flicker of recognition from anyone i have explained it to. I'm in danger of going off-topic ..ha I would call your description of another context "the spirit of place". You can feel it everywhere in Nature too. Areas, houses, cities, regions, all seem to have it. Walk through a forest and it's there, a kind of presence. Sit in a desert and it's there. Humans have become deaf and blind to it in modern times but our ancestors knew it. People who live close to Nature pick it up. I've noticed it especially among Africans. In a city, you can also sense it. Most aren't attuned to it as humans are very busy and their minds are full of the things that drive modern life, but it's there all the same, that presiding presence. Go to an abandoned site and it's there. What it is is a bit of a mystery. I think space has captivated the human imagination in the same way. The cosmos has its own sense of being. I think an astronaut might notice it on a long journey such as one to Mars, say. That cosmic presence might be felt in the seeming nothingness. Possibly because there can be no nothingness. There always seems to be some sense of place, of something. As Earth diminishes with distance perhaps a new spirit of place might wrap the astronaut's perceptions. If the astronaut takes with him a religious view, this may militate against the spirit of place. But as he moves further into another space that space may claim his sense of place and personality. Because for humans, at least, things and places also have a sense of personality. They identify themselves to us through this. It is possibly the source of primitive animism. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 15, 2023 9:41:38 GMT
I would call your description of another context "the spirit of place". You can feel it everywhere in Nature too. Areas, houses, cities, regions, Vanna, I have lifted and moved our discussion to a thread called 'animating spirits(..' in General discussion. My reply might interest you |
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Post by Paulus de B on Dec 15, 2023 13:52:35 GMT
That is truly awesome, and it really does in a way show how little our own concerns matter in the greater scheme of things. All the things we each spend so much time stressing about right now won't matter a single iota in a hundred years from now. A mere blink of an eye in the life of that tiny blue dot which is everything we know and everything anyone who has ever lived has ever known. Every human who has ever lived, great or small, good or bad, rich or poor, male or female, has lived out their lives on that tiny blue dot. And long before we came about, every dinosaur, every reptilian, every fish, every amoeba, all on that tiny blue dot. We are not that significant in the universe. If we all died tomorrow the universe wouldnt even notice. And the earth would still be here. From a universal perspective, of course we're irrelevant. Hell, we're irrelevant from any and every perspective further away than a hundred miles or a century or so! So what? We're here now, and from our own current perspective, we're of massive relevance. "We are so small between the stars, so large against the sky"... L.Cohen. The fact that our perspective is personal and local doesn't make it wrong. The relative dimensions of infinite space and eternal time are amusing, but no more than that. Big is only more important than small if it can have an impact on small, and neither infinity nor eternity can do that. |
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