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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:04:28 GMT
And if the anglo-saxon one interviews best do you drop your accusations of prejudice, or does your cycle begin again? Naturally if they've interviewed best they get the job. I really cannot fathom what is so contestable about the best qualified candidate getting the job based on merit alone. How do you find that at CV stage where you may have 40 candidates and whittle that down to six. The study was at CV stage. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:08:04 GMT
You don't think that it should be acceptable (or possible) to interview someone for a job who seems to be suitably qualified on paper and at interview feel that there is no way they would be a good fit for your organisation/team because of personality so you choose someone else for the job who you feel would be a better fit for the team? That should be a no-no in your opinion? If so it's a very naïve viewpoint - why on earth should you upset the existing applecart just because you 'feel' that is prejudice I don't believe I said that, how they would fit in with the team and company culture/values personality wise relates to capability. It's not remotely similar to dismissing them out of hand because of their skin tone. It is a consideration though. Will this candidate fit into our company's culture. You may not like that but it is true for all companies no matter who is in charge. Indian companies in the UK tend to employ Indians. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 1, 2023 19:11:04 GMT
The evidence suggests that it is ethnic minorities on the receiving end of discrimination in the case of the CV selection, that doesn't mean there aren't or won't be instances of discrimination going in the other direction. "It still doesn’t refute the point that the initial selection relies on discrimination to function and that you want people with Black and Asian names to be an exception." I don't want them to be the exception, I want everyone to be given an equal chance and stand or fall on merit alone. So everyone that applies to every job gets an interview ? Good luck with that … It's gibberish. Applications are only handled like this in small companies. In corporations and public sector the entire process is handled by 'outsiders' who have absolutely no idea what the management actually prefers. In my experience of the process, HR has a contractor and the candidates are given interviews through the contractor and the interviews are monitored by HR. The managers and people who will work with the candidate barely have a say at all. HR tend to fish for and prefer African names and people who can barely manage English and may want an explanation if you fail to select those candidates. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 1, 2023 19:14:24 GMT
I knew you would be able to understand the point. I am NOT claiming people voted Tory to get Brexit done. I think they voted Tory because the alternative was Corbyn. YOU claimed the vote was proof people supported Brexit. That was clearly a lie which you were happy to repeat despite the evidence of endless polls. I argued that there were many reasons people vote for a certain party, but you insisted it was evidence they supported Brexit. So now I say the vote for the Tories proves they all support immigration. After all as you said, there can't be multiple reasons. Nobody voted Tory for more immigration - you are deluded. You know exactly what I'm saying, do you have any shame? |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 1, 2023 19:15:39 GMT
So you are saying that we should stop blaming other people while you are blaming other people ? Jeez. Precisely. We should stop blaming the wrong people and blame the right people. So your stance has changed from “ If we could stop trying to blame we might actually discuss how to deal with the issue“ to “ we should blame the people ZG says we should blame “ |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:16:08 GMT
Because you'll just claim prejudice if not. Well if people are making hiring decisions based on anything other than merit what conclusion should one reach? But that was not shown what was shown was that those with foreign sounding names got fewer call backs or requests to go for an interview. By your own definition the CVs were identical. What we got was the results study conclusions we do not know how many times both were rejected, or the AS one rejected alone or both picked or even who the selectors were. Just as important the CVs were supposed to be identical but unless only one was sent to each employer that would have raised suspicion. All other factors were supposed to have been excluded but it is not clear how. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 1, 2023 19:16:10 GMT
I don't believe I said that, how they would fit in with the team and company culture/values personality wise relates to capability. It's not remotely similar to dismissing them out of hand because of their skin tone. It is a consideration though. Will this candidate fit into our company's culture. You may not like that but it is true for all companies no matter who is in charge. Indian companies in the UK tend to employ Indians. I'd take it further than that. We consider how a candidate will fit with our customers. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 1, 2023 19:17:28 GMT
Precisely. We should stop blaming the wrong people and blame the right people. So your stance has changed from “ If we could stop trying to blame we might actually discuss how to deal with the issue“ to “ we should blame the people ZG says we should blame “ Stop blaming innocent people. Blame the government who bought them here. Move on and discuss how we stop in happening in the future. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 1, 2023 19:20:59 GMT
So everyone that applies to every job gets an interview ? Good luck with that … Nope didn't say that. I think selection for interviews should be based on merit alone. I really don't see why that is such an apparently controversial viewpoint. How will you know if the 70 year old lap dancer has less merit than the 20 year old ? Howwill you know the one legged man has less merit than the two legged man for the bouncer job ? You invite them for an interview. Anything less is discrimination . So everyone who applies for any job gets an interview . Otherwise it’s discrimination and you don’t think that should happen . |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:21:53 GMT
So everyone that applies to every job gets an interview ? Good luck with that … Nope didn't say that. I think selection for interviews should be based on merit alone. I really don't see why that is such an apparently controversial viewpoint. It is and sometimes merit is considered on your potential contribution to a team. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 1, 2023 19:23:10 GMT
So your stance has changed from “ If we could stop trying to blame we might actually discuss how to deal with the issue“ to “ we should blame the people ZG says we should blame “ Stop blaming innocent people. Blame the government who bought them here. Move on and discuss how we stop in happening in the future. “If we could stop trying to blame we might actually discuss how to deal with the issue” So you have changed your stance from stop blaming others to blame who you say we should blame ? |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:25:34 GMT
It is a consideration though. Will this candidate fit into our company's culture. You may not like that but it is true for all companies no matter who is in charge. Indian companies in the UK tend to employ Indians. I'd take it further than that. We consider how a candidate will fit with our customers. Agreed so if you were selling African artifacts you would expect to be able to employ a black African, if you were looking after Caribbean folk in a care home you would prefer a black Caribbean. If you were a shop serving mostly white people in a white area then the same rules should apply as regards selection (we know they do not though). |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:30:07 GMT
So your stance has changed from “ If we could stop trying to blame we might actually discuss how to deal with the issue“ to “ we should blame the people ZG says we should blame “ Stop blaming innocent people. Blame the government who bought them here. Move on and discuss how we stop in happening in the future. We know the government lied, yet again as regards immigration and we do blame the government and we do not blame the immigrants however they are victims too and in correcting the problem then they will have to share the pain. Seems fair as far as fair can be in teh circumstances. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 1, 2023 20:01:26 GMT
Nope didn't say that. I think selection for interviews should be based on merit alone. I really don't see why that is such an apparently controversial viewpoint. How will you know if the 70 year old lap dancer has less merit than the 20 year old ? Howwill you know the one legged man has less merit than the two legged man for the bouncer job ? You invite them for an interview. Anything less is discrimination . So everyone who applies for any job gets an interview . Otherwise it’s discrimination and you don’t think that should happen . Discrimination has to be deliberate and must be proven so. Accidentally not interviewing a good candidate is not discrimination. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 20:05:35 GMT
How will you know if the 70 year old lap dancer has less merit than the 20 year old ? Howwill you know the one legged man has less merit than the two legged man for the bouncer job ? You invite them for an interview. Anything less is discrimination . So everyone who applies for any job gets an interview . Otherwise it’s discrimination and you don’t think that should happen . Discrimination has to be deliberate and must be proven so. Accidentally not interviewing a good candidate is not discrimination. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, only proven on the balance of probabilities, and again I may be wrong, but if a small company has an all white staff and has no diversity and equality procedure then that can be taken into consideration and work against the employer. |
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