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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 20, 2022 7:18:33 GMT
The U-turn I keep hearing about now is that the UK government will now start building a closer relationship with the EU. It's the DUP adversely affecting the stability of the GFA not the implementation of the Protocol. Nothing, but nothing, in the Protocol itself and its implementation is detrimental to the GFA. Article 1 of the Protocol is very explicit in its reaffirmation of Northern Ireland's position in the UK yet these politicians choose to believe and argue that the Protocol undermines that position. Again, it's the DUP's self-serving interpretation and their fake fears that NI would be cut off from the United Kingdom that is creating the problem. Not the Protocol itself or its implementation.. putting a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK by definition changes it's status - to argue otherwise is rather daft. True, but it's the determination of the EU to make the border the most rigidly enforced border they have that's caused all the problems. As I've said 20% of their enforcement is devoted to that border when only 0.5% of goods come through it. In addition the border staff are on a "work to rule" to find any trivial reason they can to turn back shipments. The current arrangement would work fine with goodwill on both sides. Switzerland is also a third party country - with many borders - but trades freely with the EU. The difference is that the EU cooperates with them. As I've said before the EU is determined to punish the UK to send out a clear message to other countries that might want to leave the EU. They have to make Brexit fail, and their chosen weapon is breaking up the UK. They've said as much. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 8:09:02 GMT
putting a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK by definition changes it's status - to argue otherwise is rather daft. By what and by whose definition are you talking about? It's status as an integral part of the UK - if it's status was unchanged there would be no hard border. The EU, as part of the Protocol, wanted passengers travelling between Birmingham and Belfast to have their baggage inspected for contraband - that is not an unchanged status. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 8:10:34 GMT
putting a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK by definition changes it's status - to argue otherwise is rather daft. True, but it's the determination of the EU to make the border the most rigidly enforced border they have that's caused all the problems. As I've said 20% of their enforcement is devoted to that border when only 0.5% of goods come through it. In addition the border staff are on a "work to rule" to find any trivial reason they can to turn back shipments. The current arrangement would work fine with goodwill on both sides. Switzerland is also a third party country - with many borders - but trades freely with the EU. The difference is that the EU cooperates with them. As I've said before the EU is determined to punish the UK to send out a clear message to other countries that might want to leave the EU. They have to make Brexit fail, and their chosen weapon is breaking up the UK. They've said as much. Of course you are perfectly correct - the EU could make the protocol work with a light touch regulatory regime. But they have obviously chosen not to do this so we are where we are. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 11:18:20 GMT
That should make you happy then if there is any substance to what you're hearing. Yes. I am very happy and hopeful that the UK will start being sensible about the whole thing for the sake of the nation and its people.That's it? The DUP chief says they're unhappy with the Protocol, so you propose ditching it altogether and make the DUP happy. But that aside, what is in the Protocol that is making the DUP unhappy with its implementation? Tell us.Exactly -- the viewpoint of Unionists!  Oh, yeah, they have concerns over the Protocol. Whether they're legitimate or not is the issue. So, tell us; why aren't they back at Stormont trying to sort out these "legitimate" concerns? Is it because they can't accept they lost the last elections?Yes, practical working of the Protocol. Operational, technical, procedural, process-related. And yes, it's the UK side having problems with it. Your or the UK's response to the issues with the practical working of the Protocol? Scrap the Protocol -- Fine, "override" the Protocol.As long as we continue with this Brexit -- Johnson's Brexit which you clearly blindly support and desperately reinforce -- Dominic Cummings will always be relevant. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 11:36:31 GMT
By what and by whose definition are you talking about? It's status as an integral part of the UK - if it's status was unchanged there would be no hard border. The EU, as part of the Protocol, wanted passengers travelling between Birmingham and Belfast to have their baggage inspected for contraband - that is not an unchanged status. Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom is defined by the constitution of the United Kingdom, not by its trade agreements. It all goes back to constitutionally so how has the trade border between GB and NI changed the status of Northern Ireland as country within the United Kingdom? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 12:02:14 GMT
It's status as an integral part of the UK - if it's status was unchanged there would be no hard border. The EU, as part of the Protocol, wanted passengers travelling between Birmingham and Belfast to have their baggage inspected for contraband - that is not an unchanged status. Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom is defined by the constitution of the United Kingdom, not by its trade agreements. It all goes back to constitutionally so how has the trade border between GB and NI changed the status of Northern Ireland as country within the United Kingdom? It has placed a border between NI and the UK - the whole point of the Protocol was to change the status of NI. The UK does not follow EU SM rules, NI does. Hence its status has changed - without approval from the people of NI. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 12:07:25 GMT
Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom is defined by the constitution of the United Kingdom, not by its trade agreements. It all goes back to constitutionally so how has the trade border between GB and NI changed the status of Northern Ireland as country within the United Kingdom? It has placed a border between NI and the UK - the whole point of the Protocol was to change the status of NI. The UK does not follow EU SM rules, NI does. Hence its status has changed - without approval from the people of NI. Its status as what exactly? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 13:12:03 GMT
putting a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK by definition changes it's status - to argue otherwise is rather daft. True, but it's the determination of the EU to make the border the most rigidly enforced border they have that's caused all the problems. As I've said 20% of their enforcement is devoted to that border when only 0.5% of goods come through it. In addition the border staff are on a "work to rule" to find any trivial reason they can to turn back shipments. The current arrangement would work fine with goodwill on both sides. Switzerland is also a third party country - with many borders - but trades freely with the EU. The difference is that the EU cooperates with them. As I've said before the EU is determined to punish the UK to send out a clear message to other countries that might want to leave the EU. They have to make Brexit fail, and their chosen weapon is breaking up the UK. They've said as much. Nope. It has become a matter of trust. When you don't trust someone, you naturally close loopholes, follow the agreement to the last punctuation. And then withdraw your goodwill. And the difference between the UK and Switzerland in this regard is that Switzerland follows and can be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirit of their bilateral deals with the EU so the EU trusts Switzerland. The UK does not follow, does not wish to follow and cannot be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirt of its agreement with the EU. Therefore, the EU no longer trusts the UK. Please. The EU is not punishing the UK. They won't budge on anything that threatens the integrity of their SM but is that punishing the UK? No. They're just protecting their interests -- which is fair. As I said before, all they do is respond to the numerous instigations coming from the UK. All they want is for the UK to do what everybody agreed to do. That's it! The EU is so over Brexit UK. You seem to be projecting your way of thinking onto the EU. But the EU aren't provincial in their mentality. They understand and accept that if Brexit fails; they, too, will suffer. So, why make Brexit failure a goal? Really, that idea is just pure nonsense. Banish these nonsense thoughts from your mind already! |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 20, 2022 13:46:31 GMT
True, but it's the determination of the EU to make the border the most rigidly enforced border they have that's caused all the problems. As I've said 20% of their enforcement is devoted to that border when only 0.5% of goods come through it. In addition the border staff are on a "work to rule" to find any trivial reason they can to turn back shipments. The current arrangement would work fine with goodwill on both sides. Switzerland is also a third party country - with many borders - but trades freely with the EU. The difference is that the EU cooperates with them. As I've said before the EU is determined to punish the UK to send out a clear message to other countries that might want to leave the EU. They have to make Brexit fail, and their chosen weapon is breaking up the UK. They've said as much. Nope. It has become a matter of trust. When you don't trust someone, you naturally close loopholes, follow the agreement to the last punctuation. And then withdraw your goodwill. And the difference between the UK and Switzerland in this regard is that Switzerland follows and can be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirit of their bilateral deals with the EU so the EU trusts Switzerland. The UK does not follow, does not wish to follow and cannot be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirt of its agreement with the EU. Therefore, the EU no longer trusts the UK. Please. The EU is not punishing the UK. They won't budge on anything that threatens the integrity of their SM but is that punishing the UK? No. They're just protecting their interests -- which is fair. As I said before, all they do is respond to the numerous instigations coming from the UK. All they want is for the UK to do what everybody agreed to do. That's it! The EU is so over Brexit UK. You seem to be projecting your way of thinking onto the EU. But the EU aren't provincial in their mentality. They understand and accept that if Brexit fails; they, too, will suffer. So, why make Brexit failure a goal? Really, that idea is just pure nonsense. Banish these nonsense thoughts from your mind already! All bollocks. The current situation is that we still follow all EU rules. The Tories haven't yet got round to the "bonfire of the red tape" - if they ever do. Switzerland doesn't follow all the EU's product rules necessarily - only those that it has bilateral agreements about. The UK is far more closely aligned with the EU than Switzerland. As for protecting the SM that's fair enough but they can protect it from illegal goods by using technology. It's crazy that in the 21st century they're forcing each container lorry to carry written documentation which has to be approved at the border. If it's done digitally the lorries can be pre-approved. But they won't do this because they're determined to cause "friction" in every way possible. As for the EU "understanding and accepting that if Brexit fails; they, too, will suffer", the point is that they do NOT care. That's the difference between negotiating a trade deal with a country and a trade deal with the EU (Commission). The Commission are perfectly willing to disadvantage their member countries in pursuit of the main goal - to build their empire. And they still haven't given up on bullying the UK back into the EU. And it's people like you who are to blame for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 14:50:07 GMT
Nope. It has become a matter of trust. When you don't trust someone, you naturally close loopholes, follow the agreement to the last punctuation. And then withdraw your goodwill. And the difference between the UK and Switzerland in this regard is that Switzerland follows and can be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirit of their bilateral deals with the EU so the EU trusts Switzerland. The UK does not follow, does not wish to follow and cannot be trusted to follow the provisions and the spirt of its agreement with the EU. Therefore, the EU no longer trusts the UK. Please. The EU is not punishing the UK. They won't budge on anything that threatens the integrity of their SM but is that punishing the UK? No. They're just protecting their interests -- which is fair. As I said before, all they do is respond to the numerous instigations coming from the UK. All they want is for the UK to do what everybody agreed to do. That's it! The EU is so over Brexit UK. You seem to be projecting your way of thinking onto the EU. But the EU aren't provincial in their mentality. They understand and accept that if Brexit fails; they, too, will suffer. So, why make Brexit failure a goal? Really, that idea is just pure nonsense. Banish these nonsense thoughts from your mind already! All bollocks. The current situation is that we still follow all EU rules. The Tories haven't yet got round to the "bonfire of the red tape" - if they ever do. Switzerland doesn't follow all the EU's product rules necessarily - only those that it has bilateral agreements about. The UK is far more closely aligned with the EU than Switzerland. As for protecting the SM that's fair enough but they can protect it from illegal goods by using technology. It's crazy that in the 21st century they're forcing each container lorry to carry written documentation which has to be approved at the border. If it's done digitally the lorries can be pre-approved. But they won't do this because they're determined to cause "friction" in every way possible. As for the EU "understanding and accepting that if Brexit fails; they, too, will suffer", the point is that they do NOT care. That's the difference between negotiating a trade deal with a country and a trade deal with the EU (Commission). The Commission are perfectly willing to disadvantage their member countries in pursuit of the main goal - to build their empire. And they still haven't given up on bullying the UK back into the EU. And it's people like you who are to blame for that. No, we don't follow EU rules. That's why we get sued by the EU! The only way to protect their SM from illegal goods is by carrying out checks for illegal goods. So, this thing about using technology: where will these checks on the goods be carried out and pre-approved for entry? Or are you saying that there wouldn't be checks on goods anymore? From punishing the UK for leaving to building an empire. Please, can you grow a bit of reality and find a realistic, real-world, argument against the EU? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 18:36:41 GMT
It has placed a border between NI and the UK - the whole point of the Protocol was to change the status of NI. The UK does not follow EU SM rules, NI does. Hence its status has changed - without approval from the people of NI. Its status as what exactly? An integral part of the UK - it is now the only part of the UK that has to follow Laws made by a foreign Parliament in which they have no representation.. Wars have started over less.. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 18:39:22 GMT
The only way to protect their SM from illegal goods is by carrying out checks for illegal goods. So, this thing about using technology: where will these checks on the goods be carried out and pre-approved for entry? Or are you saying that there wouldn't be checks on goods anymore? Whats the problem with using the existing facilities where Dublin checks goods arriving from other countries outside of the Single Market? |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 20, 2022 19:32:10 GMT
Its status as what exactly? An integral part of the UK - it is now the only part of the UK that has to follow Laws made by a foreign Parliament in which they have no representation.. Wars have started over less.. A poll carried out about 3 months ago showed that 56% of the NI population is in favour of the Protocol. And 58% think that the Government should not break its agreement with the EU. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 20, 2022 22:10:14 GMT
An integral part of the UK - it is now the only part of the UK that has to follow Laws made by a foreign Parliament in which they have no representation.. Wars have started over less.. A poll carried out about 3 months ago showed that 56% of the NI population is in favour of the Protocol. And 58% think that the Government should not break its agreement with the EU. Yet in the only poll that matters one community voted for parties against the Protocol. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2022 22:50:26 GMT
Its status as what exactly? An integral part of the UK - it is now the only part of the UK that has to follow Laws made by a foreign Parliament in which they have no representation.. Wars have started over less.. Surely, you are not claiming that Northern Ireland is no longer a part of the United Kingdom because it has to follow laws pertaining to trade made by a foreign parliament. At first glance, nothing. All we have to do is reroute trade between UK (including NI) and Ireland via Dublin where they can carry out customs checks. As for retail and similar trade, we'll just have to require people to hop on a ferry; get on international waters; enter the EU/Ireland via Dublin. Or take a Belfast-Dublin-Belfast flight. And vice versa. |
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