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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 14, 2023 16:45:03 GMT
The Poll Tax was the fairest method: Everyone pays for what everyone uses, on a per person basis. What's not to like, unless of course you were previously a non-contributor? Anything based on property or land values is fraught: Just because an old age pensioners home has gone up umpteen times in value since they bought it decades ago does not mean that they are rich or can afford to pay 1% or whatever of it's value every year. It's effectively a tax on inflation (and funds that are entirely notional). Local Income Tax? Hmmm... Not so good since it discourages work. Especially for people like me who can afford to retire now. If work is simply going to drop me into a higher tax bracket then I might just stay in bed - which is not the way forward if the government really wants people in their 50s to carry on working. And of course all of the above have a bureaucratic burden and likely increased cost. No, it's fine as it is. Besides, given every public bodies huge propensity to waste money, we should be looking at ways to pay them less not more. The increase in value of your property makes no difference to your council tax band. Properties are based on their value as was (or would have been for new builds) in April 1993. Even if you extend the property the new banding doesn't take effect until you sell the property, so it doesn't affect you. Yes, I know. But perhaps you should read the article you linked.
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2023 17:13:36 GMT
The Poll Tax was the fairest method: Everyone pays for what everyone uses, on a per person basis. . . Except it didn't. The Poll Tax architects very carefully excluded the massive value that owners of high value property get from using living in an organised society. Well they would wouldn't they.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 14, 2023 17:19:57 GMT
The Poll Tax was the fairest method: Everyone pays for what everyone uses, on a per person basis. . . Except it didn't. The Poll Tax architects very carefully excluded the massive value that owners of high value property get from using living in an organised society. Well they would wouldn't they. Sorry, come again?
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Post by andrewbrown on Sept 14, 2023 17:26:47 GMT
Except it didn't. The Poll Tax architects very carefully excluded the massive value that owners of high value property get from using living in an organised society. Well they would wouldn't they. Sorry, come again? Steve's point is that poll tax was a personal charge, not one based on property.
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Post by andrewbrown on Sept 14, 2023 17:27:58 GMT
The increase in value of your property makes no difference to your council tax band. Properties are based on their value as was (or would have been for new builds) in April 1993. Even if you extend the property the new banding doesn't take effect until you sell the property, so it doesn't affect you. Yes, I know. But perhaps you should read the article you linked. Errm, I did, hence why I posted it. I also pointed out that this is my day job. 😉
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 14, 2023 17:38:42 GMT
Steve's point is that poll tax was a personal charge, not one based on property. As it should be.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 14, 2023 17:39:22 GMT
Yes, I know. But perhaps you should read the article you linked. Errm, I did, hence why I posted it. I also pointed out that this is my day job. 😉 Then one would have thought that you'd know more about it.
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Post by jonksy on Sept 14, 2023 17:49:18 GMT
Yes, I know. But perhaps you should read the article you linked. Errm, I did, hence why I posted it. I also pointed out that this is my day job. 😉 Hows about councils were funded on positive results? That would save the taxpayers a fortune.
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2023 21:05:48 GMT
Steve's point is that poll tax was a personal charge, not one based on property. More nuanced than that. Middle is trying to pretend that those with property make no use of the existence and maintenance of an ordered society. Well he's wrong, without such a society the properties would be valueless wrecks so it's fair that the more 'use' a property owner makes of that society protection of value the more they should pay. But they don't. Mrs K and I live in a band F property quite possibly worth £500k so it's absolutely right we pay a multiple of what those in band A's pay even though with no kids we actually make much less use of the overt services like education and refuse. What's wrong is someone in a property worth 10 times only pays a fraction more. Well the Tories couldn't have their mansion owning mates pay a fair whack could they so they capped council tax at band H.
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Post by andrewbrown on Sept 14, 2023 21:45:12 GMT
Steve's point is that poll tax was a personal charge, not one based on property. More nuanced than that. Middle is trying to pretend that those with property make no use of the existence and maintenance of an ordered society. Well he's wrong, without such a society the properties would be valueless wrecks so it's fair that the more 'use' a property owner makes of that society protection of value the more they should pay. But they don't. Mrs K and I live in a band F property quite possibly worth £500k so it's absolutely right we pay a multiple of what those in band A's pay even though with no kids we actually make much less use of the overt services like education and refuse. What's wrong is someone in a property worth 10 times only pays a fraction more. Well the Tories couldn't have their mansion owning mates pay a fair whack could they so they capped council tax at band H. OK, I get you. But it's even more bizarre than that, because property values vary enormously by area. I live in and end terrace in Coventry, band A, but pick my house up and transport it to inner London, the same house doesn't have the same value. I'd say minimum Band E. I get you point on the upper limits, my mum lives in a nice 4 bed detached in a village outside the city. Nice house, but nothing special, but at band E she complains that she's only 3 bands lower than the Queen. (RIP). In Wales when they did the revaluation they extended the bandings to J, but all it did was succeed in increasing everyone's (pretty much) banding, hence Gordon Brown's decision to postpone the revaluation in England. I think the inherent unfairness in the current system is the alignment of ctax to property value, on the basis that people who live in more expensive or bigger houses have more income. Of course that's not always true, hence the need to have council tax support to fund those on no or low incomes. We also have a shortage of particularly one bed properties in this country, we have a lot of single people living in larger properties. One other thing is maintaining an accurate database. The system is totally reliant on the public providing prompt and accurate info when they move into or out of the property. That's because you are billing the residents rather than the owner. A land tax would shift that the other way round, so the info could be shared through the land registry. That would also reduce the amount of cts needed, as the majority of land owners should be able to pay the bill without assistance. Questions would remain over council properties and housing association (charities) and whether / how you would bill them. Similarly with a local income tax you would have a direct link to HMRC, so collecting would be easier for those on PAYE, but what about those who are self employed? You'd have less enforcement costs, and you could pretty much get rid of CTS, but would hit those on lower incomes disproportionately.
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2023 22:04:31 GMT
The real focus behind the Poll Tax was Thatcher's belief that tax was only to be a burden for little people. She really was quite sick at times
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Post by Orac on Sept 14, 2023 22:46:30 GMT
More nuanced than that. Middle is trying to pretend that those with property make no use of the existence and maintenance of an ordered society. Well he's wrong, without such a society the properties would be valueless wrecks so it's fair that the more 'use' a property owner makes of that society protection of value the more they should pay. But they don't. Mrs K and I live in a band F property quite possibly worth £500k so it's absolutely right we pay a multiple of what those in band A's pay even though with no kids we actually make much less use of the overt services like education and refuse. What's wrong is someone in a property worth 10 times only pays a fraction more. Well the Tories couldn't have their mansion owning mates pay a fair whack could they so they capped council tax at band H. OK, I get you. But it's even more bizarre than that, because property values vary enormously by area. I live in and end terrace in Coventry, band A, but pick my house up and transport it to inner London, the same house doesn't have the same value. I'd say minimum Band E. That's because being at one place is more valuable than being at another. It's interesting to reflect on who provides this value. Who provides (creates) the value of being (say) in the center of London?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 23:04:15 GMT
I am very proud to declare that I was Chairman of our local Anti Poll Tax protest group, and as such I did my little bit to bring down Margaret Thatcher.
The Poll Tax meant that a single pensioner with no other income living in a one bedroom flat paid the same as the local arisocrat living in a castle with staff.
It was wrong and it was why Margaret Thatcher was dumped - end of story
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Post by Orac on Sept 14, 2023 23:15:02 GMT
I am very proud to declare that I was Chairman of our local Anti Poll Tax protest group, and as such I did my little bit to bring down Margaret Thatcher. The Poll Tax meant that a single pensioner with no other income living in a one bedroom flat paid the same as the local arisocrat living in a castle with staff. It was wrong and it was why Margaret Thatcher was dumped - end of story Everyone makes mistakes. The left's conceit that hammering the productive helps anyone has done far, far more damage - and the un-fairness of that conceit is more camouflaged I think one reason taxation is so contentious in the uk is odious the state of the public sector. If the public sector could be cleaned up, people might not feel they were being mugged by a gang of scoundrels
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Post by ratcliff on Sept 14, 2023 23:35:46 GMT
Personally I'd go with a Land Value Tax but I suspect that will be an idea that is a bit too radical for the UK. I'd go to a per person charge - along the lines of a poll tax Spread the charges amongst all the users - why not? Why should only the few pay?
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